I was worried about our starting rotation

[EddeeEddee]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It’s simple.  They didn’t throw max effort on every pitch.   Managers were very reluctant to pull their starters because relievers weren’t very good, so starters had to pace themselves.  Nowadays, it’s clear that a fresh reliever is better than a tired starter, so starters go max effort and get relieved as soon as they start losing effectiveness. 

In 1939, batters’ OPS against starters was about 15 points lower than against relievers.  Today it’s 30 points higher.  So, the calculus about when to pull the starter has changed considerably.  
 

Love your research tidbits.  Where's you find that one?

[Malike]

37 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Everyone just babies them more.  I do wish someone could really come up with something concrete as to why Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer and Catfish Hunter could throw so many innings back in the day, and guys now can't.  I do wonder if weight-lifting for pitchers was as prevalent back then.  I don't know the answer, though.

They didn't throw as hard, didn't have little league pitch counts per age brackets, and as others pointed out BP's have been much more important. Guys seem to burn a lot brighter now than longer as they did back in the day. The insane stress on the arm with the crazy velo and spin rates on breaking balls, just lots of reasons. One that likely gets overlooked a lot are the pitchers that could throw that many innings stuck around and the ones that were good, but had arm problems, ended up pumping gas in Toledo, they didn't have Dr's to surgically rebuild them.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Malike

[Baltimorecuse]

17 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It’s simple.  They didn’t throw max effort on every pitch.   Managers were very reluctant to pull their starters because relievers weren’t very good, so starters had to pace themselves.  Nowadays, it’s clear that a fresh reliever is better than a tired starter, so starters go max effort and get relieved as soon as they start losing effectiveness. 

In 1939, batters’ OPS against starters was about 15 points lower than against relievers.  Today it’s 30 points higher.  So, the calculus about when to pull the starter has changed considerably.  
 

Yup

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, Malike said:

They didn't throw as hard, didn't have little league pitch counts per age brackets, and as others pointed out BP's have been much more important. Guys seem to burn a lot brighter now than longer as they did back in the day. The insane stress on the arm with the crazy velo and spin rates on breaking balls, just lots of reasons. One that likely gets overlooked a lot are the pitchers that could throw that many innings stuck around and the ones that were good, but had arm problems, ended up pumping gas in Toledo, they didn't have Dr's to surgically rebuild them.

I'm sure there were plenty of guys in the 40's that burned a bit bright and then tore up their elbow, we just don't remember them.

Smoky Joe Wood had 35 CG in 1912 (in his fifth season at 22 years old) and only appeared in seven games after his age 25 season.

[Malike]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm sure there were plenty of guys in the 40's that burned a bit bright and then tore up their elbow, we just don't remember them.

Smoky Joe Wood had 35 CG in 1912 (in his fifth season at 22 years old) and only appeared in seven games after his age 25 season.

Koufax was another hard thrower who retired due to "elbow arthritis" at 30 years old.

[Frobby]

The starting pitching just continues to hum along.  

July: 3.63 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.63 IP/start, 3rd in the AL

August: 3.68 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.83 IP/start, 1st in the AL
 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Frobby said:

The starting pitching just continues to hum along.  

July: 3.63 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.63 IP/start, 3rd in the AL

August: 3.68 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.83 IP/start, 1st in the AL
 

It’s been really impressive. So many options for the playoffs as of today.

I still worry about where things will be in a month but maybe the extra days off will help enough.

 

[Sports Guy]

Love the quote from Hyde:

https://x.com/nathansruiz/status/1696625815918686506?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

The starting pitching just continues to hum along.  

July: 3.63 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.63 IP/start, 3rd in the AL

August: 3.68 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.83 IP/start, 1st in the AL
 

Hyde has noticeably started to allow his starters to go further into their outings and work out of trouble in those 6th innings. I think that has saved his bullpen some as well. Now grant it, the quality of the starters have something to do with it, but I do feel Hyde has made some slight adjustments on how he uses his starters and relievers.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Love the quote from Hyde:

https://x.com/nathansruiz/status/1696625815918686506?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA

Looking at those first few comments is why listening to the clutter of everyday Joe's of X/Twitter is worthless.

[interloper]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

The starting pitching just continues to hum along.  

July: 3.63 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.63 IP/start, 3rd in the AL

August: 3.68 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.83 IP/start, 1st in the AL
 

To me, Kremer has been the key. Just a few starts ago, he was rocking an ERA just under 5, and now he's approaching sub-4 with another good start or two. He's really on a roll. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by interloper

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Hyde has noticeably started to allow his starters to go further into their outings and work out of trouble in those 6th innings. I think that has saved his bullpen some as well. Now grant it, the quality of the starters have something to do with it, but I do feel Hyde has made some slight adjustments on how he uses his starters and relievers.

I do too, and in part I think that’s a necessary tradeoff for having a six-man rotation.  We have fewer bullpen guys available so the starters need to cover a little more each game, and they can do it since they’re getting more rest.  But mainly it’s because the pitchers are throwing well and improving their pitch efficiency too. 

[EddeeEddee]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

The starting pitching just continues to hum along.  

July: 3.63 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.63 IP/start, 3rd in the AL

August: 3.68 ERA, 3rd in the AL; 5.83 IP/start, 1st in the AL
 

It's funny how a team can reach first place and stay there awhile when the starting pitching improves.  

[EddeeEddee]

1 hour ago, interloper said:

To me, Kremer has been the key. Just a few starts ago, he was rocking an ERA just under 5, and now he's approaching sub-4 with another good start or two. He's really on a roll. 

Yep, and Grayson coming back strong has obviously been huge.  Never would have guessed the rotation would remain this strong with Wells getting sent down.

[ExileAngelos]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:04 PM, Malike said:

They didn't throw as hard, didn't have little league pitch counts per age brackets, and as others pointed out BP's have been much more important. Guys seem to burn a lot brighter now than longer as they did back in the day. The insane stress on the arm with the crazy velo and spin rates on breaking balls, just lots of reasons. One that likely gets overlooked a lot are the pitchers that could throw that many innings stuck around and the ones that were good, but had arm problems, ended up pumping gas in Toledo, they didn't have Dr's to surgically rebuild them.

Or could it be a self fulfilling prophecy by believing we are smarter now and that limiting innings and counting pitches instead of letting guys throw to get their arms ready.  And it gets more and more restrictive as the years pass, even though it isn't doing anything preventing injuries.  Not long ago 120 pitches was considered the soft limit for a game.  That number is now 100.  Relievers pitching 3 days in a row max is now 2.  The only thing that holds any merit, IMO, is how kids play year round now instead of playing other sports back in the day.