Can we all agree on one thing?

[Gentile4]

Mateo at least brings solid defense to the table which justifies occasional playing time. I'm done w/the Frazier experiment.

[TheWall]

2 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I can understand posters/fans wanting to see Cowser and Kjerstad. But lumping them in with Ortiz? I don't understand that at all. The other two are top of the draft first round picks expected to be franchise cornerstone/main staple type players. Ortiz, at best he is a temporary place holder until Jackson Holliday displaces him. I am not sure if Ortiz gives us anymore of a net positive difference than just playing Gunnar at SS and Urias at 3B. What is clear is that some of you are higher on Ortiz than the O's appear to be.

The idea that a top 100 prospect is at best a placeholder is laughable. Ortiz might end up a bust, but he could also end up a very good everyday SS - he certainly has the glove for it. 

I'm not sure why Gunnar and Urias are being brought up here given that folks want to see less of Mateo and Frazier. 

[maybenxtyr]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I can understand posters/fans wanting to see Cowser and Kjerstad. But lumping them in with Ortiz? I don't understand that at all. The other two are top of the draft first round picks expected to be franchise cornerstone/main staple type players. Ortiz, at best he is a temporary place holder until Jackson Holliday displaces him. I am not sure if Ortiz gives us anymore of a net positive difference than just playing Gunnar at SS and Urias at 3B. What is clear is that some of you are higher on Ortiz than the O's appear to be.

They're just prospects. Not everyone has to separate them out when having a general discussion. Ortiz should have received some playing time when we are considering using him over Mateo. Jackson Holliday has zero bearing on the team at this moment.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, TheWall said:

The idea that a top 100 prospect is at best a placeholder is laughable. Ortiz might end up a bust, but he could also end up a very good everyday SS - he certainly has the glove for it. 

I'm not sure why Gunnar and Urias are being brought up here given that folks want to see less of Mateo and Frazier. 

Is it?

It depends on the level of talent present in the top 100 list.

I'm not talking about Ortiz in particular here but the concept that a Top 100 prospect might not be regarded as a future everyday player.  Some lists are just going to be weaker than others.  A guy might be #98 in one year and would have placed #140 in another year, or #40.

[2001OriolesFan]

4 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

I don't really agree with anything stated in the OP.

Elias waited too long to bring up Westburg and Cowser, and Ortiz should have gotten more playing time up until this point and should still replace Mateo as the everyday shortstop. It doesn't look like it now, but this team has all the pieces to be an elite offense when you consider Cowser, Kjerstad, and Ortiz will each be promoted at some point later this season. Elias has simply delayed making the correct moves in favor of giving more leash to scrubs like Frazier, Mateo, Hicks, and O'Hearn (McKenna also shouldn't be on the team but he doesn't play very much).

Yes, he wants to lose games and hasn't found a good way to do it yet.

 

[2001OriolesFan]

Nobody has mentioned that another objective right now is showcasing the more veteran plays that we want to trade to get more pitching prosepcts.

 

[SteveA]

6 minutes ago, 2001OriolesFan said:

Nobody has mentioned that another objective right now is showcasing the more veteran plays that we want to trade to get more pitching prosepcts.

 

Honestly, I don't think showcasing is a thing, except in terms of an injured guy proving he is healthy enough to be coveted by other teams (such as Eduardo Rodriguez coming off the IL to start for Detroit this week).

I don't think what Adam Frazier does in a dozen games between now and the deadline is going to make a team want him more or less.

[Baltimorecuse]

4 hours ago, owknows said:

Honestly... this sounds like a bunch of self-indulgent preening with no real basis in fact.

Haven't seen suggestions that Elias isn't interested in winning.

What I have seen, is a legitimate crticism that he sticks with poor to mediocre veterans too long, at the expense of developing players who should be with the big club. People have been clamoring for Westburg and Ortiz for awhile. Quite rationally.

That's largely because Frazier and Mateo are journeymen ball players, and particularly right now, SUCK with the bat in their hands. They have made the team worse.

Westburg has entered the lineup and performed extremely well. The fact that the team has not performed extremely well over that stretch has nothing to do with Westburg or his performance.

So in short.. nothing about your OP is supported by reality.

 

 

 

He stays with vets too long in your opinion but not because he doesn't care about winning.  So what are you suggesting is the causative factor for this "shortcoming"?  You've eliminated he wants to lose or doesn't care about winning.  Is he stupid?  Weak?  A traitor?  

[Baltimorecuse]

20 minutes ago, 2001OriolesFan said:

Nobody has mentioned that another objective right now is showcasing the more veteran plays that we want to trade to get more pitching prosepcts.

 

The best way to showcase the players we want to trade is not play them.

[owknows]

Just now, Baltimorecuse said:

He stays with vets too long in your opinion but not because he doesn't care about winning.  So what are you suggesting is the causative factor for this "shortcoming"?  You've eliminated he wants to lose or doesn't care about winning.  Is he stupid?  Weak?  A traitor?  

If I were to hazard a guess... I'd say he stays with mediocre vets too long because he has a bit too much of an ego. He's emotionally invested in them. He had some early success with dumpster picking. He turned a few has-been choices into serviceable MLB players. Even flipped a couple of them for profit. I'm sure its a bit of a thrill.

But we're not that team any more. He built us a nice farm. Time to turn on the conveyor belt.

And on a personal note.. you might want to ratchet down the smarmy hostility in your posts.. it really isn't necessary or productive.

 

 

[Baltimorecuse]

13 minutes ago, owknows said:

If I were to hazard a guess... I'd say he stays with mediocre vets too long because he has a bit too much of an ego. He's emotionally invested in them. He had some early success with dumpster picking. He turned a few has-been choices into serviceable MLB players. Even flipped a couple of them for profit. I'm sure its a bit of a thrill.

But we're not that team any more. He built us a nice farm. Time to turn on the conveyor belt.

And on a personal note.. you might want to ratchet down the smarmy hostility in your posts.. it really isn't necessary or productive.

 

 

You mean unlike the hostility of the poster I was responding to.  

So let's return to the argument at hand.  Elias can't do the job because of his ego.  OK, I have no idea if that's correct.  So you're saying he's incompetent to do the job correctly?  

BTW:  don't say it's a minor issue.  It's almost all anyone talks about.  I saw a post the other day where a guy said if Elias doesn't dummy up he was going to stop being an O's fan.  It's all entertainment and nothing more.  When it stops being fun why would you watch it, or buy a ticket.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Baltimorecuse

[FlipTheBird]

3 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

You mean unlike the hostility of the poster I was responding to.  

So let's return to the argument at hand.  Elias can't do the job because of his ego.  OK, I have no idea if that's correct.  

BTW:  don't say it's a minor issue.  It's almost all anyone talks about.  I saw a post the other day where a guy said if Elias doesn't dummy up he was going to stop being an O's fan.  It's all entertainment and nothing more.  When it stops being fun why would you watch it, or buy a ticket.

All anyone talks about? More like it’s what a small group of very vocal people won’t ever shut up about on a message board. I rarely if ever hear the run of the mill fan scathingly demand that the Orioles call up their prospects.

[Baltimorecuse]

7 minutes ago, FlipTheBird said:

All anyone talks about? More like it’s what a small group of very vocal people won’t ever shut up about on a message board. I rarely if ever hear the run of the mill fan scathingly demand that the Orioles call up their prospects.

Not calling up all the prospects isn't the only criticism of Elias, is it?  This thread is about his failure to draft pitchers, or trade for them.  

[owknows]

30 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

You mean unlike the hostility of the poster I was responding to.  

So let's return to the argument at hand.  Elias can't do the job because of his ego.  OK, I have no idea if that's correct.  So you're saying he's incompetent to do the job correctly?  

 

I'm saying that he's a human being. And like all human beings... he has strengths and weaknesses.

He has some pretty good strengths. He drafts exceptionally well. He seems to understand the nature of the game, and how to extract value from applying statistical metrics.

On the flip side... he seems to have a weakness for holding on to dumpster fodder vets for too long.

On the whole, I'd say he's one of the better GM's in the league... Top tier.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have faults. And those faults need to be weighed on the whole to assess overall competency.

Not sure what's driving your hyperbolic approach to this conversation.. but it's making you look a little silly.

[owknows]

37 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

BTW:  don't say it's a minor issue.  It's almost all anyone talks about.  I saw a post the other day where a guy said if Elias doesn't dummy up he was going to stop being an O's fan.  It's all entertainment and nothing more.  When it stops being fun why would you watch it, or buy a ticket.

It certainly isn't all I talk about... and judging from the diversity of threads and subject matter here.. I'd say it is a trivial fraction of what is discussed here.

In fact, I'd say this is more of a problem of "all you can think about" rather than "all anyone talks about".

As for what you saw some guy say the other day... not sure what that has to do with me.

I love the game... I enjoy watching it... discussing it... and I can generally do so without the veins bulging out in my forehead. Honestly.. I'm not sure you can say the same. Maybe your problem is that it has stopped being fun.... For YOU