Angelos wanted two year lease extension

[Billy F-Face3]

3 hours ago, MCO'sFan said:

He can’t just move the team like they do in the NFL. He has to get the approval of MLB and I just don’t see that happening. He doesn’t have a good relationship with MLB and they will want to keep Nashville as a chip to hold over current MLB cities to extort stadiums etc out of them. They are losing Vegas and they need Nashville for that. 

I don't think you should be minimizing the financial politics of a bunch of greedy business who's interests are to make money. It's pretty obvious that a few of those owners would all but be guaranteed in favor to vote to move the Orioles out of Baltimore because it gives them a bigger market, especially the Nationals and probably the Phillies. So right there/, you're already starting with a handicap against keeping the team in Baltimore.

[Gurgi]

I pray some story comes out about Angelos doing something bad like harassing female employees or something.  Something that will build and build till he has to sell .

[Gurgi]

How often do teams actually move when the fans are still supporting the club?  If he really wanted to move the best bet would be to tank the team and never make it better till no one shows up at the park and he can cry no support.

[EddeeEddee]

8 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I don't think you should be minimizing the financial politics of a bunch of greedy business who's interests are to make money. It's pretty obvious that a few of those owners would all but be guaranteed in favor to vote to move the Orioles out of Baltimore because it gives them a bigger market, especially the Nationals and probably the Phillies. So right there/, you're already starting with a handicap against keeping the team in Baltimore.

The Nationals are in no position to vote the Orioles to move to another city since they arrived in DC well after the Orioles and they are in the process of changing owners.  The Phillies?  Baltimore is too far from Philadelphia and too big a city for fans to embrace the Phillies.  DC is much closer -- only 45 miles away.  

And even if the DC and Philly owners liked the idea of the O's moving, why would the other owners go along with it?  The Orioles, despite the worst efforts of the Angelos family, are perceived as a cornerstone MLB franchise -- especially now that the team is good again and drawing fans again.  Camden Yards is perceived as a cornerstone stadium -- the one that jump started the stadium boom.

On top of all that, Nashville is a significantly smaller market than Baltimore and an unproven MLB one as well.  Baltimore seems small market because of the bigger metro areas up and down the coast, but it's large compared to Nashville -- especially since the Orioles draw fans from throughout the mid-Atlantic.  It would be a major risk for an established team to move to Nashville.  Expansion makes more sense there. 

The city that's closer in size to Baltimore and has no team is Charlotte.  For whatever reason everyone talks about Nashville as a future MLB team when they used to talk about Charlotte. 

It will be interesting to see if the Braves or maybe even the Reds challenge expansion in Nashville since I believe they are the two teams that are geographically closest to it.

 

[Billy F-Face3]

6 minutes ago, EddeeEddee said:

The Nationals are in no position to vote the Orioles to move to another city since they arrived in DC well after the Orioles and they are in the process of changing owners.  The Phillies?  Baltimore is too far from Philadelphia and too big a city for fans to embrace the Phillies.  DC is much closer -- only 45 miles away.  

And even if the DC and Philly owners liked the idea of the O's moving, why would the other owners go along with it?  The Orioles, despite the worst efforts of the Angelos family, are perceived as a cornerstone MLB franchise -- especially now that the team is good again and drawing fans again.  Camden Yards is perceived as a cornerstone stadium -- the one that jump started the stadium boom.

On top of all that, Nashville is a significantly smaller market than Baltimore and an unproven MLB one as well.  Baltimore seems small market because of the bigger metro areas up and down the coast, but it's large compared to Nashville -- especially since the Orioles draw fans from throughout the mid-Atlantic.  It would be a major risk for an established team to move to Nashville.  Expansion makes more sense there. 

The city that's closer in size to Baltimore and has no team is Charlotte.  For whatever reason everyone talks about Nashville as a future MLB team when they used to talk about Charlotte. 

It will be interesting to see if the Braves or maybe even the Reds challenge expansion in Nashville since I believe they are the two teams that are geographically closest to it.

 

I could chat up a storm in a whole separate thread form touching on this topic. There's alot of conversation to be had, but I think it would be hijacking the thread if done here. I will just say that I find it interesting that the Orioles moved to Baltimore from St. Louis, and were formerly considered a cornerstone franchise named the Browns. It's very ironic that both professional franchises in Baltimore/Camden Yards moved from other cities where they used to be named "The Browns".

I digress, because I could talk about this separate topic much longer.

[sevastras]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

But he doesn't hold all the leverage.

The Ravens are a bigger deal than the O's and he can't actually move the team.

What's his play if the State doesn't budge? 

What’s the states play?  The stadium and land are only beneficial if the orioles are there. He can kick the can down the road as long as he wants until someone sympathetic to his demands are in charge. Hence the want for a two year lease to iron out a longer extension. The orioles aren’t going anywhere and the state will eventually cave enough to make a long term deal happen. The ravens have nothing to do with anything and the only ones who make money are the owner and the community receives perceived value through jobs, increased business, tourism blah blah blah that goes into the economic impact reports created by the developer and fed to the city/state/stadium authority. It is why Walmart can go in and build a $10mm building and receive tax abatements greater than the cost. He could just let the stadium go to crap and claim the state is unreasonable and eventually after 20 years of fighting move to Nashville like the As and Vegas. Not having a lease doesn’t mean they are moving and not having a lease isn’t the end of the world. When the details get worked out and everyone comes to an agreement, it will get done. This is just how business like this is done, just not so publicly. But yeah, F all the Angelos’ and I hope they sell because they have been terrible for this team. Maybe a WS win this year will produce a buyer that offers enough for them to sell and we can all celebrate both wins. I’m not lawyer, maybe someone who is can clarify if owning a team is like real property in which the base value is stepped up upon inheritance.  I doubt it, but there could be something like that or an LP or a number of other tax implications involved that require Peter to pass before anything happens. 

[Going Underground]

This idea of building on Lot A,B and C apoears for now to be off the table. Maybe it comes back  Negotiations are fluid. The lease talks seem to be becoming much more public every day. Many people speaking off the record and some on and frustrated. 

John Angelos sought development rights to state-owned parking lots as Orioles negotiate new Camden Yards lease
https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bs-sp-orioles-angelos-lease-development-parking-lot-camden-yards-20230811-cckbxdgvdzfidowyspv7j2ifdu-story.html

[Going Underground]

One of sources familiar with the negotiations said Angelos’ idea for the parking lots came up earlier in the talks with the administration of Gov. Wes Moore, but is no longer on the table. That is not the direction a final deal is headed, the source said. Another source emphasized that in any negotiation, the situation is fluid and could not say for certain whether the idea was still under consideration.

[Going Underground]

 

The parking lots are part of roughly 85 acres that comprise the Camden Yards complex. They are valuable because of their proximity to the stadiums, the Inner Harbor and a growing entertainment district that includes Horseshoe Casino and Topgolf, as well as their proximity to Washington, D.C. However, the area is hemmed in by the stadiums, and a portion of the property is of shallow depth because of an underground  tunnel

 

Stadium Authority Chairman Craig Thompson did not respond Thursday to a text seeking comment.

Angelos, the city and state have all expressed interest in redeveloping the stadium area.

 

A state move to relinquish the development rights could be problematic, however, because state officials would need to ensure Maryland received ample return for its property.

State Senate President Bill Ferguson, a Baltimore Democrat, said the Orioles and the authority should wrap up lease talks before considering development options. “It’s important that they remain separate conversations,” he said.

Ferguson said he could neither confirm nor deny details of the negotiations. But he said questions about attracting long-term investment around the stadiums and Inner Harbor “are easier conversations once a long-term deal is in place. We can deal with the other stuff around the stadium in the context of the broader revitalization of downtown.”

Developing the area between the stadiums would also present concerns because lots B and C are prime parking for Ravens’ fans. The NFL team, in fact, is guaranteed parking spaces in its lease.

Requests to the Ravens for comment were not returned.

The Ravens’ lease extension, signed in January, requires the stadium authority to provide approximately 4,000 surface parking spaces for games and other events at M&T. The authority cannot reduce the number of spaces in so-called key parking lots — lettered A through H — without the Ravens’ approval.

In the case of Lot A, the stadium authority can’t reduce the number of spaces unless it provides an equal number of replacement spaces acceptable to the Ravens, the lease stipulates. The stadium authority can construct something “over, on, or under” Lot A, as long as any spaces lost to something like a structure’s support columns are relocated and the spaces eliminated are kept to a minimum.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Going Underground

[baloriole4]

3 hours ago, Gurgi said:

I pray some story comes out about Angelos doing something bad like harassing female employees or something.  Something that will build and build till he has to sell .

John would have a hard time ever running to be a US Senator when all of the cocaine stories come out 

[baloriole4]

3 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

On top of all that, Nashville is a significantly smaller market than Baltimore and an unproven MLB one as well.  Baltimore seems small market because of the bigger metro areas up and down the coast, but it's large compared to Nashville -- especially since the Orioles draw fans from throughout the mid-Atlantic.  It would be a major risk for an established team to move to Nashville.  Expansion makes more sense there. 

The city that's closer in size to Baltimore and has no team is Charlotte.  For whatever reason everyone talks about Nashville as a future MLB team when they used to talk about Charlotte. 

 

 

Below is list of 2023 DMA rankings from #21-30.   Nashville looks pretty close to us  (hello Indy above us at #25).    Is Nashville "significantly smaller than Baltimore" based on the greater metropolitan area?   I'm trying to understand.     But if greater metro area, the greater Baltimore metro area is also not so clear MLB preference wise, as many parts of Howard County, Anne Arundel County and of course the counties below there are now split Orioles/Nats

Charlotte also a much larger media market than Baltimore

https://methodshop.com/nielsen-dma-rankings-full-list/    "Markets are ranked by population and change slightly each year based on regional growth or decline."

Portland, OR (#21)

Charlotte (#22)

St. Louis (#23)

Raleigh-Durham (Fayetteville) (#24)

Indianapolis (#25)

Pittsburgh (#26)

San Diego (#27)

Baltimore (#28)

Nashville (#29)

Salt Lake City (#30)

[Chavez Ravine]

The mutual hate between MLB and the Angelos clan certainly throws a wrench into the normally well oiled protection racket MLB runs...so yeah the O's aren't moving anywhere as long as an Angelos is in charge. But other cities, in even smaller media markets, aren't so lucky. Manfred went to Milwaukee earlier this year and made the classic threat without actually threatening:

Quote

 

Wisconsin's Legislature and Gov. Tony Evers need to approve a plan to finance $448 million of long-term renovations at American Family Field — or perhaps risk the Milwaukee Brewers moving to another city. That's the indirect message delivered Thursday by Major League Baseball Commissioner Robert Manfred on a visit to Milwaukee

 To be sure, Manfred didn't explicitly say the Brewers might leave Milwaukee once the team's lease of American Family Field expires at the end of 2030. ...

But Manfred told reporters it's important that a ballpark funding plan be promptly approved by government officials. And he cited the Oakland Athletics' ballpark, the publicly owned Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum, as a cautionary tale.

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/real-estate/commercial/2023/05/25/brewers-ballpark-funding-draws-concerns-from-mlb-commissioner-manfred/70253613007/

[OriolesMagic83]

How much money do we have to give the Angelo's clan to leave town and never come back.  I think just O's fans would spend a hefty amount.

[Going Underground]

The Baltimore Banner is reporting John Angelos wants $300 million more from the State.

[Going Underground]

The Baltimore Banner is reporting John Angelos wants $300 million more from the State.

 

John Angelos sought additional $300 million, development of parking lots in lease stalemate - The Baltimore Banner
https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/sports/orioles-mlb/orioles-lease-john-angelos-wes-moore-6FNXN3UPRBHZVPSVCE6LDWOY24/