The O's ARE a small market team -- but so what?

[TradeAngelos]

15 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Then I’m not buying that Baltimore is a small market. It is unrealistic to consider the type of market it is if the DC area isn’t part of their calculation. 

I will agree that it’s hard to tell how much of DC plays a part into the Baltimore market, but we all know it does. 
 

IMO it’s a mid market team. 

Because it isn't, it is just that the delusional homers have to grab every single thing they can (true or not) to try to make it so, to themselves feel better when ownership refuses to spend. They are like Johnny's little internet Army serving up propaganda to appease the state. They swear allegiance to the ownership and no one else.  MASN? What's that? Oh right been running at a loss since inception. Hasn't made a single f'in dollar, ever. POOF that money juist flies into the abyss never to be seen or even mentioned again....The deal they cut with MLB and the Nats was TERRIBLE for the team! Everyone new that! It's what made them a "small market team". Instantly. That is how these people just lie and obfuscate. 

 

[TradeAngelos]

Let's just say for s%^&and giggles that number is only 300m since attendance has been down the last 5 years. But guess what is also WAY down over the last 5 years? The payroll! They have spent a grand total of 225m (120m of that in yr 1 and 5) on payroll. While bringing in 1.5 BILLION. I guess it costs 1.25 BILLION over a 5 year period on overhead! But sure, tell me how poor they are. Tell me how they are a little itty bitty market like the Rays. Tell me how they haven't stacked up cash to the ceiling for the past 5 years, that SHOULD be used to lock up anyone and everyone worth it. NOW.  You people are being LIED TO and you just accept it at face value. That is why you deserve every bit of the pain that is coming over the next 5 years, as all the cornerstone pieces walk out the door one by one, just like Machado did. These people have been looting this team of cash every chance they have for 30 years, and Johnny is going to keep that tradition going for the next 30. Because this fanbase is too weak and spineless to do anything about it. 

[CallMeBrooksie]

3 minutes ago, TradeAngelos said:

Let's just say for s%^&and giggles that number is only 300m since attendance has been down the last 5 years. But guess what is also WAY down over the last 5 years? The payroll! They have spent a grand total of 225m (120m of that in yr 1 and 5) on payroll. While bringing in 1.5 BILLION. I guess it costs 1.25 BILLION over a 5 year period on overhead! But sure, tell me how poor they are. Tell me how they are a little itty bitty market like the Rays. Tell me how they haven't stacked up cash to the ceiling for the past 5 years, that SHOULD be used to lock up anyone and everyone worth it. NOW.  You people are being LIED TO and you just accept it at face value. That is why you deserve every bit of the pain that is coming over the next 5 years, as all the cornerstone pieces walk out the door one by one, just like Machado did. These people have been looting this team of cash every chance they have for 30 years, and Johnny is going to keep that tradition going for the next 30. Because this fanbase is too weak and spineless to do anything about it. 

Man, you have a really serious reading comprehension problem.

It makes you totally incapable of having an adult conversation on this topic.

[Frobby]

6 hours ago, TradeAngelos said:

Let's just say for s%^&and giggles that number is only 300m since attendance has been down the last 5 years. But guess what is also WAY down over the last 5 years? The payroll! They have spent a grand total of 225m (120m of that in yr 1 and 5) on payroll. While bringing in 1.5 BILLION. I guess it costs 1.25 BILLION over a 5 year period on overhead! But sure, tell me how poor they are. Tell me how they are a little itty bitty market like the Rays. Tell me how they haven't stacked up cash to the ceiling for the past 5 years, that SHOULD be used to lock up anyone and everyone worth it. NOW.  You people are being LIED TO and you just accept it at face value. That is why you deserve every bit of the pain that is coming over the next 5 years, as all the cornerstone pieces walk out the door one by one, just like Machado did. These people have been looting this team of cash every chance they have for 30 years, and Johnny is going to keep that tradition going for the next 30. Because this fanbase is too weak and spineless to do anything about it. 

Everybody knows the O’s have been very profitable since 2019.   You can’t just take these numbers and multiply by five though, for two big reasons:

1.  The BAMTech payment is a one-time payment.  It hasn’t happened annually and it won’t happen again.  

2.  The O’s literally had zero attendance in 2020.  The $80 mm estimate here for 2023 (which is probably high by $15 mm or so) is with roughly 1.9 mm fans in the stands.  They had less than 1.4 mm in 2019 and 2022, they had zero in 2020, and about 800 k in 2021.   Needless to say, the O’s share of TV revenue and revenue sharing also was way down in 2020. 

My estimate of the O’s profits since 2019 can be found here,  And I suggest you read that post it you think I am in any way defending Angelos.  

Edited August 23, 2023 by Frobby

[EddeeEddee]

16 hours ago, Chavez Ravine said:

The business of all MLB teams, regardless of market, is a varied combination of two things.

 

1. A vanity project where rich owners get to swag around at power lunches with politicians, turn down invites to be on sports talk radio, and hang with Magic Johnson.....all things they couldn’t do as simple tort lawyers, shipping magnates, or pork belly brokers.

 

2. A vulture capital hedge fund where the play is to shift all the risk and distress of the business on to others—cities, 14 year old Dominican kids, hungry fans—while peeling off the valuable bits for themselves—the associated real estate, media rights, and the collective value of the idea of MLB.

 

So whether a team is making money or not is often neither here nor there.

 

True, though of course it depends on how rich the owner is.  When the league deemed Frank McCourt to be exploiting the Dodgers to pay for his divorce and other things, it stepped in and forced him to sell the team.  Something similar could happen to the Angelos family.

[EddeeEddee]

9 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

The bottom line is that owning a team is a license to print money. Having the RSN makes it even easier.

There are countless avenues of revenue streams and whether your market is small or not, you can still afford large contracts and good size payrolls that allow you to contend year in and year out.

Now, some teams have to be smarter with their money than others and that means your margin for error is less but that’s ok. There is nothing wrong with that.

But that doesn’t mean you are poor, that anyone should feel sorry for you or that you are in danger of going bankrupt.

The big problem is the RSN model appears to be dying and no one knows exactly what will replace it -- and if whatever model replaces generates anywhere near as much income as the current one.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, EddeeEddee said:

The big problem is the RSN model appears to be dying and no one knows exactly what will replace it -- and if whatever model replaces generates anywhere near as much income as the current one.

But that’s Only a portion of things and let’s face it, the new model will be all about streaming and there will be plenty of money in that.

[brucewayne]

1 hour ago, TradeAngelos said:

Let's just say for s%^&and giggles that number is only 300m since attendance has been down the last 5 years. But guess what is also WAY down over the last 5 years? The payroll! They have spent a grand total of 225m (120m of that in yr 1 and 5) on payroll. While bringing in 1.5 BILLION. I guess it costs 1.25 BILLION over a 5 year period on overhead! But sure, tell me how poor they are. Tell me how they are a little itty bitty market like the Rays. Tell me how they haven't stacked up cash to the ceiling for the past 5 years, that SHOULD be used to lock up anyone and everyone worth it. NOW.  You people are being LIED TO and you just accept it at face value. That is why you deserve every bit of the pain that is coming over the next 5 years, as all the cornerstone pieces walk out the door one by one, just like Machado did. These people have been looting this team of cash every chance they have for 30 years, and Johnny is going to keep that tradition going for the next 30. Because this fanbase is too weak and spineless to do anything about it. 

You act like the fans own the team. 

[forphase1]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But that’s Only a portion of things and let’s face it, the new model will be all about streaming and there will be plenty of money in that.

Maybe.  Maybe not.   I've some good friends at in my local college administration and they are hugely concerned with keeping revenue stable as the tv dollar switches to a streaming dollar.  They genuinely believe that the streaming/ad future revenue is going to only be a fraction of the tv/ad revenue currently.  I don't know if their fears are valid or if the college sports dynamic is comparable to the MLB/Os dynamic, but to assume there will be plenty of money there may be inaccurate.  None of that to justify not spending more while the money is coming in, but there is some uncertainty while planning for the future 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Maybe.  Maybe not.   I've some good friends at in my local college administration and they are hugely concerned with keeping revenue stable as the tv dollar switches to a streaming dollar.  They genuinely believe that the streaming/ad future revenue is going to only be a fraction of the tv/ad revenue currently.  I don't know if their fears are valid or if the college sports dynamic is comparable to the MLB/Os dynamic, but to assume there will be plenty of money there may be inaccurate.  None of that to justify not spending more while the money is coming in, but there is some uncertainty while planning for the future 

Apple TV deal:

https://www.si.com/mlb/rangers/around-mlb/apple-tv-deal-exclusive-friday-night-games
 

Peacock:

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/mlb-nbc-peacock-tv-rights-streaming-2022/?zephr_sso_ott=rfx4RO
 

Considering how few games these services show for this money, the money seems to be significant.

MLB will be in new markets soon. The new rules are going to help. Attendance and viewership is up.

I don’t  think revenue is going to be an issue here.

[forphase1]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Apple TV deal:

https://www.si.com/mlb/rangers/around-mlb/apple-tv-deal-exclusive-friday-night-games
 

Peacock:

https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/mlb-nbc-peacock-tv-rights-streaming-2022/?zephr_sso_ott=rfx4RO
 

Considering how few games these services show for this money, the money seems to be significant.

MLB will be in new markets soon. The new rules are going to help. Attendance and viewership is up.

I don’t  think revenue is going to be an issue here.

Yeah, I know those deals, and frankly hate them as they blackout the games from MLB.TV.  Thing is Apple (and Amazon and other streaming services) are often overspending to try to break into the markets, but are not, apparently, making money off of these deals.  At some point they will be expecting to turn a profit.  Again, I hope you are right.  And, as I said, maybe MLB is a very different beast from college sports and the concerns are not the same.  But in the college ranks the cable cutting and viewership changing challenges is something administrators are worried and concerned about.  Revenue may not be an issue here.  But I'm not 100% confident that is not going to be the case.  

[EddeeEddee]

6 hours ago, brucewayne said:

Baltimore is increasingly becoming a small market. The city and metro area isnt gaining much population. The GDP is stagnant. Our competitors such as DC, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania are growing rapidly. What fortune 500 companies are prominent in Maryland? They are all going to Virginia for lower taxes and less regulations. All the wealthy retirees are moving to Delaware and Florida because of the much more competitive taxes. If it wasnt for our proximity to the national capitol and the prominence of Federal jobs we would be a failed state. 

Just looking it up quickly, the Baltimore area is doing pretty well.  The Baltimore area still has a higher GDP per capita than the Atlanta, Dallas, Houston or Philly areas -- and way higher than Miami or Tampa -- and that's not including the DC area. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._metropolitan_areas_by_GDP_per_capita

Of course the cost of living is higher in the Baltimore/DC areas too, but those other areas will sooner or later catch up cost-wise based on how fast they are growing.

T Rowe Price, Sinclair Broadcasting and McCormick are Baltimore area Fortune 500 companies -- though I think this is from a year or two ago and may have changed a bit.  Of course there are other big companies in Baltimore too like Under Armour and Legg Mason, not to mention all of the health care and science related jobs that go with Johns Hopkins and other orgs.  The bigger issue about Fortune 500 Companies is not that there aren't many in Maryland but that most of them are in the DC suburbs -- which makes sense since many of them depend on proximity to government. 

 

[EddeeEddee]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

But that’s Only a portion of things and let’s face it, the new model will be all about streaming and there will be plenty of money in that.

I hope you're right about streaming, but I don't think anyone in the league feels sure of it yet.  If they felt that steaming would bring in plenty of money quickly, then I think they would be pushing for the change asap.  My guess is they fear the change could be long and drawn out.

 

 

 

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, EddeeEddee said:

I hope you're right about streaming, but I don't think anyone in the league feels sure of it yet.  If they felt that steaming would bring in plenty of money quickly, then I think they would be pushing for the change asap.  My guess is they fear the change could be long and drawn out.

 

 

 

Well, the teams have contracts with their RSNs, so it’s not easy to change that but with some of the issues around the league, we may be starting to see the RSNs go away.

[brucewayne]

9 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

Just looking it up quickly, the Baltimore area is doing pretty well.  The Baltimore area still has a higher GDP per capita than the Atlanta, Dallas, Houston or Philly areas -- and way higher than Miami or Tampa -- and that's not including the DC area. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._metropolitan_areas_by_GDP_per_capita

Of course the cost of living is higher in the Baltimore/DC areas too, but those other areas will sooner or later catch up cost-wise based on how fast they are growing.

T Rowe Price, Sinclair Broadcasting and McCormick are Baltimore area Fortune 500 companies -- though I think this is from a year or two ago and may have changed a bit.  Of course there are other big companies in Baltimore too like Under Armour and Legg Mason, not to mention all of the health care and science related jobs that go with Johns Hopkins and other orgs.  The bigger issue about Fortune 500 Companies is not that there aren't many in Maryland but that most of them are in the DC suburbs -- which makes sense since many of them depend on proximity to government. 

 

The DC suburbs is wealthier than the Baltimore area. Those fans are Nationals fans. Our state economy is not growing. Our competitors are. We become a smaller market every year. Everybody with money leaves. Martin O'Malley made sure of that with his tax hikes. The first rule of state and local taxes is the more you tax the less money you have. The tax base leaves to another state.