John Means - Playoff Starter

[wildcard]

What a difference 4 days makes.   Means settled this issue.   He is a playoff starter.   Joining GRod, Bradish and probably Kremer.   If Gibson wants a starters role in the playoffs he is going to have to step it up.   Flaherty has been sent to the pen and appears to be out of consideration as a playoff starter.

[Frobby]

He can start a playoff game if he promises to pitch exactly like he did tonight.  

[foxfield]

As we have repeatedly seen recently, the pitching issues with this team are rarely "settled".  But Means was playoff caliber tonight and it came in an important time.  His effort gave us a chance to win and it gave the pen some much needed rest.

It's good to have him, that is for sure.

[Billy F-Face3]

Jim Palmer said John Means pitched himself into the #2 spot of the Playoff rotation. I agree. Especially because it gives us a 1, 2, 3 punch between the contrast mix of Means being a finess LHP compared to the RHP Power Pitcher that Grayson is starting right behind him.

1. Kyle Bradish

2. John Means

3. Grayson Rodriguez

4. Kyle Gibson or Dean Kremer

5. Manager's discretionary choice. (See how the series is going and decide a plan.)

 

I kind of wish we had another LHP who would be good enough to mix into the rotation because if you can mix thins up successfully it prevents the other team from getting away with being 1 dimensional.

[Uli2001]

 

7 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Jim Palmer said John Means pitched himself into the #2 spot of the Playoff rotation. I agree. Especially because it gives us a 1, 2, 3 punch between the contrast mix of Means being a finess LHP compared to the RHP Power Pitcher that Grayson is starting right behind him.

1. Kyle Bradish

2. John Means

3. Grayson Rodriguez

4. Kyle Gibson or Dean Kremer

5. Manager's discretionary choice. (See how the series is going and decide a plan.)

 

I kind of wish we had another LHP who would be good enough to mix into the rotation because if you can mix thins up successfully it prevents the other team from getting away with being 1 dimensional.

Do you need five starters in a playoff series? I think you only need four. In fact, your #1 could pitch three times in a seven-game series. Bumgarten (sp?) used to do that for SF and dominate.

[emmett16]

32 minutes ago, Uli2001 said:

 

Do you need five starters in a playoff series? I think you only need four. In fact, your #1 could pitch three times in a seven-game series. Bumgarten (sp?) used to do that for SF and dominate.

You need 3.  

[Sports Guy]

4 Ks and missed 6 bats.

I missed the game tonight and it looks like he pitched well and he is certainly 3rd in the pecking order right now (which speaks to the staff more than anything) but I don’t have confidence in him vs top offenses if he can’t miss bats and strike guys out.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Sports Guy

[accinfo]

38 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

4 Ks and missed 6 bats.

I missed the game tonight and it looks like he pitched well and he is certainly 3rd in the pecking order right now (which speaks to the staff more than anything) but I don’t have confidence in him vs top offenses if he can’t miss bats and strike guys out.

This Cleveland team seems to make much more contact than most teams.  I watched every pitch and if pitches like that I will take it every time.

[Roy Firestone]

I didnt see an inning of the game tonight...I was out...but boy, I will watch it on the video tomorrow...how clutch was Means when we needed to win and we needed length.?..if he has one more good start(I think he's up Thursday next week) I believe he is a better option than Kremer or Gibson...Based on what I heard, Means looked like the Means we saw dominate and make the ASG.About as clutch and important a performance that we've seen in a long time.just brilliant.

[Billy F-Face3]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

4 Ks and missed 6 bats.

I missed the game tonight and it looks like he pitched well and he is certainly 3rd in the pecking order right now (which speaks to the staff more than anything) but I don’t have confidence in him vs top offenses if he can’t miss bats and strike guys out.

The box score statistics rarely tell the whole story. You would have had to see him work on the mound. At one point, I think it was in the 6th or 7th inning, we were all wondering if Hyde would let him stay out there because his pitch count was starting to get up. He got 2 outs with only 3 pitches. And this was only his 3rd start after surgery.

I'll take pitch efficiency for outs any day, all day. It helps pitchers cruise through games and save the bullpen. Swing and miss isn't the end all, be all of statistics.

[Billy F-Face3]

7 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

 

Do you need five starters in a playoff series? I think you only need four. In fact, your #1 could pitch three times in a seven-game series. Bumgarten (sp?) used to do that for SF and dominate.

Purely depends on how the series plays out and the MLB schedule. I looked at Blake Snell's game log from the 2022 post season and they only had him pitch 1 game per Padres series. Which means they didn't run him out there for game 4 or 5.

[btdart20]

6 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

4 Ks and missed 6 bats.

I missed the game tonight and it looks like he pitched well and he is certainly 3rd in the pecking order right now (which speaks to the staff more than anything) but I don’t have confidence in him vs top offenses if he can’t miss bats and strike guys out.

I came here to say something similar.  CLE is a weak offense, but the 79.7 EV and 47.4% GB% plays.  He has thrown a total of 257 pitches this year.  33% has been the changeup.  59% are non-fastballs.

A lot rides on his changeup (as usual).  In the SSS of 2023, CH has a 25.7 vertical drop.  Compared to 22.7 and 20.9 in 2021 and 2020 respectively.  If the CH can keep dropping, then the GB% and EV should be manageable.  If the CH isn't working, then we'll need a long man ready.  This is where a guy like Wells is needed.  

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

The box score statistics rarely tell the whole story. You would have had to see him work on the mound. At one point, I think it was in the 6th or 7th inning, we were all wondering if Hyde would let him stay out there because his pitch count was starting to get up. He got 2 outs with only 3 pitches. And this was only his 3rd start after surgery.

I'll take pitch efficiency for outs any day, all day. It helps pitchers cruise through games and save the bullpen. Swing and miss isn't the end all, be all of statistics.

Swing and miss and getting Ks are 2 of the most important stats out there for any position.

You can say all the cliches you want there but at the end of the day, pitching to contact is very dangerous. 
 

It’s simple math. A ball put in play is an out 70-73% of the time, on average. A strikeout is an out 99% of the time. 

If you miss a bat, you cant give up contact, which means you aren’t at risk of a hit, which means no baserunners, which means they can’t score.

So, it’s pretty damn important.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Sports Guy

[wildcard]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Swing and miss and getting Ks are 2 of the most important stats out there for any position.

You can say all the cliches you want there but at the end of the day, pitching to contact is very dangerous. 
 

It’s simple math. A ball put in play is an out 70-73% of the time, on average. A strikeout is an out 99% of the time.

But pitching to contact often means less pitches per innings.   Less pitches per inning means the starter can go deep into games.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

But pitching to contact often means less pitches per innings.   Less pitches per inning means the starter can go deep into games.

Fewer pitches.

 

Can you show evidence to support this claim?  I know it sounds super obvious but is it?