Chourio to get 8/80..Os should do the same for Holliday

[SemperFi]

50 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

We just need to accept the fact that Elias doesn’t have some win cheap agenda. He just wants to succeed at his job given the resources available. 

This is all on JA.

I’m sure the reason we got Flaherty over Montgomery at the deadline was because Montgomery cost the pro rated portion of $10 million and Flaherty cost the pro rated portion of $5.4 million. 

No more analysis needed. We had the best record in the AL. JA wasn’t even willing to spend the extra 1-2 million extra then. 

Devils advocate here, as much as JA makes a wonderful villian:

-We know ME was offerered and turned down the Giants offer specifically because he gained control over all personnel decisions with the Orioles-something SF would not concede.

-We know ME is a really bright guy who coming in knew the Angelos family issues and the financial pressures of competing in the AL East

-Why would he turn down all the resources SF offers to come to Baltimore?  Did a complete rebuild-something SF cannot really do appeal to him?  Maybe....

-Are we then to believe ME after getting personnel concessions from JA fails to address something as fundamental to his success as operating budgets?  I don't believe that for a second.   

-Following that are we then to believe that ME and JA starting his sixth year here do not somewhat align in vision?   

[sportsfan8703]

1 minute ago, SemperFi said:

Devils advocate here, as much as JA makes a wonderful villian:

-We know ME was offerered and turned down the Giants offer specifically because he gained control over all personnel decisions with the Orioles-something SF would not concede.

-We know ME is a really bright guy who coming in knew the Angelos family issues and the financial pressures of competing in the AL East

-Why would he turn down all the resources SF offers to come to Baltimore?  Did a complete rebuild-something SF cannot really do appeal to him?  Maybe....

-Are we then to believe ME after getting personnel concessions from JA fails to address something as fundamental to his success as operating budgets?  I don't believe that for a second.   

-Following that are we then to believe that ME and JA starting his sixth year here do not somewhat align in vision?   

Elias is from the area. Probably as simple as that. He’s built a name for himself and won executive of the year. But just like DD, what’s going to happen when another team offers him more money and a better title?  The Angelos family did DD really dirty. 

[Sports Guy]

39 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I agree this is a better deal for Holliday than it is for the Orioles, at this stage (no established level of major league performance).   I don’t agree his dad’s money is irrelevant.  At a mimimum, he doesn’t need to worry about supporting any member of his family other than himself.   

You have no idea how his dad deals with his money. But yes, he doesn’t have to support his family but he’s still an individual who likely wants to be able to stand on his own 2 feet and being handed 120ishM at age 20 is tough to turn down no matter what your family’s portfolio looks like.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

Devils advocate here, as much as JA makes a wonderful villian:

-We know ME was offerered and turned down the Giants offer specifically because he gained control over all personnel decisions with the Orioles-something SF would not concede.

-We know ME is a really bright guy who coming in knew the Angelos family issues and the financial pressures of competing in the AL East

-Why would he turn down all the resources SF offers to come to Baltimore?  Did a complete rebuild-something SF cannot really do appeal to him?  Maybe....

-Are we then to believe ME after getting personnel concessions from JA fails to address something as fundamental to his success as operating budgets?  I don't believe that for a second.   

-Following that are we then to believe that ME and JA starting his sixth year here do not somewhat align in vision?   

Where did you see that?

I remember seeing this SI piece:

Quote

Elias only chose to join the Orioles because Baltimore "codified" several things in his contract that gave him the power to make staffing decisions without ownership involvement.

https://www.si.com/mlb/giants/history/sf-giants-aggressively-pursued-mike-elias

Staffing decisions is something far different than all personal decisions.

[Frobby]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

You have no idea how his dad deals with his money. But yes, he doesn’t have to support his family but he’s still an individual who likely wants to be able to stand on his own 2 feet and being hanging 120ishM at age 20 is tough to turn down no matter what your family’s portfolio looks like.

You’re right, I have no idea how his dad deals with his money.   I remember reading an article in the Wall Steet Journal years ago about how Tom Glavine had set up a trust that didn’t pay his kids anything until they’d accomplished something on their own, because he didn’t want them being unmotivated.   https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB942799766357531502  I can totally understand that.  My dad expected me to stand on my own two feet and I expect that of my kids.  Still, it’s not the same as if your family is truly poor.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

They should.  They should also offer something to Gunnar, too.

But they won't because they're stupid when it comes to this.  

We can bang the "Angelos is cheap" drum all day, and that's a fun drum to bang on.  But I also get the feeling (and it's a feeling, it's not based on fact or quotes or anything tangible) that Elias is confident enough in his skills and abilities to be able to replace these guys when they hit free agency.  That he can keep that continuous pipeline of talent to the majors constantly stocked so that when Gunnar or Holliday walk, there's three or four guys ready to go to replace them.

Given that Gunnar and Holliday's agent is Scott Boras, I have doubts they would sign an early contract extension, but it would be a huge miscalculation if Elias is the key figure holding out on getting either of them signed.

Even if Elias is the best talent evaluator ever Gunnar or Holliday's trade value increases if they're signed to contracts that buy out some of their free agent years. That's better than letting them walk for a draft pick or trading them right before free agency.

[SemperFi]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Where did you see that?

I remember seeing this SI piece:

https://www.si.com/mlb/giants/history/sf-giants-aggressively-pursued-mike-elias

Staffing decisions is something far different than all personal decisions.

 

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Where did you see that?

I remember seeing this SI piece:

https://www.si.com/mlb/giants/history/sf-giants-aggressively-pursued-mike-elias

Staffing decisions is something far different than all personal decisions.

Good point, I read that incorrectly. 

My larger point being I don't believe ME accepted the position without some shared expectation of what payroll would be.  He's into his sixth year and from all indications not unhappy.

[Moose Milligan]

7 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Given that Gunnar and Holliday's agent is Scott Boras, I have doubts they would sign an early contract extension, but it would be a huge miscalculation if Elias is the key figure holding out on getting either of them signed.

Even if Elias is the best talent evaluator ever Gunnar or Holliday's trade value increases if they're signed to contracts that buy out some of their free agent years. That's better than letting them walk for a draft pick or trading them right before free agency.

I don't think Elias is the key figure in holding out in getting these guys signed.  Angelos is and always will be.

But I think Elias is confident, excuse me, arrogant enough to think that he can operate with those handcuffs.

[Malike]

You're talking about 2 Boras clients, and you're also asking for something to happen that has never happened in 30 years of him representing baseball players and then blaming it on Angelos and Elias.

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think Elias is the key figure in holding out in getting these guys signed.  Angelos is and always will be.

But I think Elias is confident, excuse me, arrogant enough to think that he can operate with those handcuffs.

I also think he's smart enough to have an exit strategy.

[sportsfan8703]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I don't think Elias is the key figure in holding out in getting these guys signed.  Angelos is and always will be.

But I think Elias is confident, excuse me, arrogant enough to think that he can operate with those handcuffs.

Don’t you want a GM that is extremely confident to the point of maybe being arrogant given the reality of John Angelos?  This GM job isn’t for the faint of heart. 

[E-D-D-I-E]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

This is just foolish. 
 

We aren’t talking about replacing talent. We are talking about replacing MVP level elite talent.

For you to think so little of Elias (ie, think he is that arrogant) that he believes he can just get MVP level talents on a whim is absurd.

MVP level talent? Wow...where A+? You act like Holliday is a sure fire All-Star hitting .300/20/100 in the Majors. How many players have we seen BOMB in the big leagues with both a high prospect level AND while destroying the minor leagues? Pick up the phone, Matt Wieters is calling...

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, Frobby said:

You’re right, I have no idea how his dad deals with his money.   I remember reading an article in the Wall Steet Journal years ago about how Tom Glavine had set up a trust that didn’t pay his kids anything until they’d accomplished something on their own, because he didn’t want them being unmotivated.   https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB942799766357531502  I can totally understand that.  My dad expected me to stand on my own two feet and I expect that of my kids.  Still, it’s not the same as if your family is truly poor.

Shaw tells a funny story about how his kids would say “we’re rich”…and he was like no I’m rich…he doesn’t let his kids have any of his money until they get a masters degree.

[E-D-D-I-E]

3 minutes ago, Malike said:

You're talking about 2 Boras clients, and you're also asking for something to happen that has never happened in 30 years of him representing baseball players and then blaming it on Angelos and Elias.

 

Fact. Not to mention the fact that he is anointing Holliday, the next Corey Seager. Prospects are prospects, until they PROVE to be big leaguers. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, E-D-D-I-E said:

MVP level talent? Wow...where A+? You act like Holliday is a sure fire All-Star hitting .300/20/100 in the Majors. How many players have we seen BOMB in the big leagues with both a high prospect level AND while destroying the minor leagues? Pick up the phone, Matt Wieters is calling...

Huh?

In what reality did Matt Wieters BOMB?

He had a very nice career.