Roch: Holliday, Mayo, Kjerstad, Stowers, Norby, and Al Suarez optioned

[forphase1]

54 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I meant force his hand by playing so well that it becomes obvious to Elias/Sig and everyone that he would be an upgrade over Urias.

I don’t think that they promoted Holliday with such aggressiveness last season (allowing him to make the rare jump of 4 levels) only to leave him at AAA for most or all of this season. That kind of defies logic. 

I agree, but it depends on what 'logic' you are using.  IF the logic is 'we want to win TODAY and go all in for 2024' then Holliday should have already made the team OR he'd be up as soon as possible as he's a better player than some of the guys who will be getting at bats (Urias, Mateo) with him in the minors.  But if the 'logic' is to make sure we have Holliday for as many years, as cheaply as we can, then that logic keeps him down past Super 2 status and past any way he can earn the year back by finishing top 2 in the ROY voting.  The second MAY not be the best for 2024, but could arguably be what's best for the franchise long term.  Then, even worse, if the 'logic' is he has a greater chance to net us a draft pick by winning the ROY in 2025, then he'll be down even longer.  

Problem is, we don't know exactly which 'logic' Elias it using.  Win now in 2024?  Long term franchise stability/control?  Restocking the minors with additional picks?  All can be logical, depending on which stance Elias is taking.

Again, don't get me wrong.  I'd have Holliday and Mayo BOTH on the OD roster.  We need to maximize the Adley/Gunner years.  But clearly Elias feels otherwise.  We just don't know which logic he's using, and just how he is weighing the various considerations with winning now, service time, draft pick, price of Holliday, etc.  

[forphase1]

1 hour ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

They’re just trolling us at this point.

Other than Westburg, that's basically the lineup we are going with.  Unfortunately I expect to see both Mateo AND Urias in the starting lineup like this quite often.  No longer have Odor or Frazier to be the vet clogging up an infield position, so Urias and Mateo will do the job.    

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

I agree, but it depends on what 'logic' you are using.  IF the logic is 'we want to win TODAY and go all in for 2024' then Holliday should have already made the team OR he'd be up as soon as possible as he's a better player than some of the guys who will be getting at bats (Urias, Mateo) with him in the minors.  But if the 'logic' is to make sure we have Holliday for as many years, as cheaply as we can, then that logic keeps him down past Super 2 status and past any way he can earn the year back by finishing top 2 in the ROY voting.  The second MAY not be the best for 2024, but could arguably be what's best for the franchise long term.  Then, even worse, if the 'logic' is he has a greater chance to net us a draft pick by winning the ROY in 2025, then he'll be down even longer.  

Problem is, we don't know exactly which 'logic' Elias it using.  Win now in 2024?  Long term franchise stability/control?  Restocking the minors with additional picks?  All can be logical, depending on which stance Elias is taking.

Again, don't get me wrong.  I'd have Holliday and Mayo BOTH on the OD roster.  We need to maximize the Adley/Gunner years.  But clearly Elias feels otherwise.  We just don't know which logic he's using, and just how he is weighing the various considerations with winning now, service time, draft pick, price of Holliday, etc.  

Having Holliday start the season on the team isn't going all in.

Going all in looks like trading for Burnes and Soto then signing Hader.

[ThisIsBirdland]

1 minute ago, forphase1 said:

Other than Westburg, that's basically the lineup we are going with.  Unfortunately I expect to see both Mateo AND Urias in the starting lineup like this quite often.  No longer have Odor or Frazier to be the vet clogging up an infield position, so Urias and Mateo will do the job.    

Very exciting to envision some variation of this lineup with Holliday and Mayo in it instead of those guys later this year though. 

[forphase1]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Having Holliday start the season on the team isn't going all in.

Going all in looks like trading for Burnes and Soto then signing Hader.

Sure, we could and SHOULD have done more.  My point was more about the Holliday decision, and if the most important thing was winning NOW then Holliday would be up as he's better than the guys playing in his place.  Therefore winning NOW was not, in my opinion, the top consideration that Elias used when deciding to demote Holliday.  Now, maybe Elias legitimately thinks that having Mateo and Urias at the plate versus Holliday makes us better, and that they will outperform him, and gives us a better chance to win.  If so, I'll just have to disagree with him.  

[Bemorewins]

13 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

I agree, but it depends on what 'logic' you are using.  IF the logic is 'we want to win TODAY and go all in for 2024' then Holliday should have already made the team OR he'd be up as soon as possible as he's a better player than some of the guys who will be getting at bats (Urias, Mateo) with him in the minors.  But if the 'logic' is to make sure we have Holliday for as many years, as cheaply as we can, then that logic keeps him down past Super 2 status and past any way he can earn the year back by finishing top 2 in the ROY voting.  The second MAY not be the best for 2024, but could arguably be what's best for the franchise long term.  Then, even worse, if the 'logic' is he has a greater chance to net us a draft pick by winning the ROY in 2025, then he'll be down even longer.  

Problem is, we don't know exactly which 'logic' Elias it using.  Win now in 2024?  Long term franchise stability/control?  Restocking the minors with additional picks?  All can be logical, depending on which stance Elias is taking.

Again, don't get me wrong.  I'd have Holliday and Mayo BOTH on the OD roster.  We need to maximize the Adley/Gunner years.  But clearly Elias feels otherwise.  We just don't know which logic he's using, and just how he is weighing the various considerations with winning now, service time, draft pick, price of Holliday, etc.  

You raise a good point about the approach of Elias.

We have Burnes this season. Unless we spend significant money on starting pitching our rotation will probably not be as good, especially if Bradish needs surgery and is out or not the pitcher he was last season. We could need to replace 3/5ths of current rotation depending on what happens with Bradish.

IMO given the starting pitching situation, this would appear to be a win-now-year.

But you are right, who knows what Elias is really thinking?

[Orioles Jim]

well if we need a right-handed DH…

[foxfield]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

No he can't.

He can't adjust to left handed ML pitching in the minors.

 

Maybe he will get work against John Means

 

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

All I can hope for is that under the new ownership regime, the organization won’t be so tone deaf.

Under new ownership, the last thing I wasn't is for them to be driven by fans.  I want them to win, and to do whatever they believe is necessary to accomplish that.

I don't like sending all these young players down any more than you do, but these guys have exceeded expectations for for 2 years and have frankly earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to these moves.

The Orioles are going to be pretty good and they are going to be in a league that is pretty stacked.  The roster is going to change during the course of the year and it will change more next year.

I have personal opinions as does everyone on what they "should" do and what I "want" ownership to do.  But my judgements will be based upon one thing.  Winning.  If they keep doing that, I am going to be supportive.  But these guys are supposed to be smarter than us and even if they are not, looking at you SG, they have access to a whole lot more info than we have.  

Let's be excited for the coming season and be comfortable that a team that 5 years ago seemed to be an entire roster of placeholders are now filled with talent to where we have the need to argue incessantly about which of our talented future stars should replace players who helped us win 101 last year.  It's quite the First World problem to have.

Let's Go Orioles!!!

[Can_of_corn]

37 minutes ago, Orioles Jim said:

well if we need a right-handed DH…

Guy had a great run for an 8th round pick but let's not.

[Bemorewins]

10 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Under new ownership, the last thing I wasn't is for them to be driven by fans.  I want them to win, and to do whatever they believe is necessary to accomplish that.

I don't like sending all these young players down any more than you do, but these guys have exceeded expectations for for 2 years and have frankly earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to these moves.

The Orioles are going to be pretty good and they are going to be in a league that is pretty stacked.  The roster is going to change during the course of the year and it will change more next year.

I have personal opinions as does everyone on what they "should" do and what I "want" ownership to do.  But my judgements will be based upon one thing.  Winning.  If they keep doing that, I am going to be supportive.  But these guys are supposed to be smarter than us and even if they are not, looking at you SG, they have access to a whole lot more info than we have.  

Let's be excited for the coming season and be comfortable that a team that 5 years ago seemed to be an entire roster of placeholders are now filled with talent to where we have the need to argue incessantly about which of our talented future stars should replace players who helped us win 101 last year.  It's quite the First World problem to have.

Let's Go Orioles!!!

I agree with go O’s. I don’t agree that Elias and the org are above criticism or that I think that it is best for them to be tone death to the fans.

I agree that I want them to win like you, but always making the cheapest decision possible is not the way to get there. If we want to sustain excellence, we are going to have to spend. 

[Os4days]

Jackson was drafted the same year as Andruw Jones’s kid and it got me thinking about Andruw Jones who at age 19 was brought up on a very good Atlanta team and helped propel them to even better seasons as a 20 year old and beyond. Bottom line is Atlanta brought him up and played him because they thought he would help them. They didn’t look at service time as a reason not to play him. 

[George Zuverink]

7 minutes ago, Os4days said:

Jackson was drafted the same year as Andruw Jones’s kid and it got me thinking about Andruw Jones who at age 19 was brought up on a very good Atlanta team and helped propel them to even better seasons as a 20 year old and beyond. Bottom line is Atlanta brought him up and played him because they thought he would help them. They didn’t look at service time as a reason not to play him. 

Andruw Jones came up in 1996. Service Time gaming didn’t become a thing until the CBA that went into effect for the 2012 season.

[Orioles Jim]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Guy had a great run for an 8th round pick but let's not.

I’m a sentimental sap but I was definitely being tongue in cheek

[Warehouse]

31 minutes ago, George Zuverink said:

Andruw Jones came up in 1996. Service Time gaming didn’t become a thing until the CBA that went into effect for the 2012 season.

Andruw Jones was called up in August.  I believe it was still 6 years of service time to article XX(b) free agency and 172 days to earn a full year in 1995-1996 CBA.