Jackson Holliday 2024

[Tony-OH]

46 minutes ago, casadeozo said:

Tony what’s an example of a controllable arm you would consider Holliday for? My instinct is one of the Seattle starters (Kirby or Gilbert) or Skubal.

I'll be honest and say that's not my specialty and not what I really focus on. I would say though that the starter would need to have at least 3 years of control after this season and be considered a #2 with ACE tendencies. I haven't started to look on who would be available, but it's probably not many that would fit that bill. Which is why I don't think Holliday, Mayo or Basallo will be traded. 

 

[sportsfan8703]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Absolutely.  A high OBP bat in this lineup would do wonders.

When does replacing McCann with Basallo become a thing?  What are the odds that two of Basallo, Mayo, and Holliday are on the post season roster?

[Moose Milligan]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Mainly because after year or two in AAA, MLB has been adopting things like the pitch clock, bigger bases, limited disengagements, etc. 

I do think they are worried that offense will spike like in AAA though. I kind of like the umps calling pitches, but the batter and catcher getting so many challenges a game. It was pretty quick and put a little strategy into the game. 

Either way, with Holliday's 70 grade eye, he would benefit.

Gotcha.  I think this would represent the largest change they've made, that's why I don't know if it'll be done by next season.

I like the challenge idea, too.  

[Tony-OH]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Rob Manfred already has said It’s unlikely to happen in 2025.

Thanks. It was more speculation by me that it COULD be next year, but we know some form is coming at some point.

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Rob Manfred already has said It’s unlikely to happen in 2025.

The devil is in the details, usually.  

[Moose Milligan]

9 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

When does replacing McCann with Basallo become a thing?  What are the odds that two of Basallo, Mayo, and Holliday are on the post season roster?

I'd say there's zippy chance of Basallo being up here this year.  I mean, maybe for a September call up and a few games in Baltimore but that all depends on the pennant race, etc.  No chance Basallo is on the postseason roster unless something unforseen happens.

[ChuckS]

15 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Mainly because after year or two in AAA, MLB has been adopting things like the pitch clock, bigger bases, limited disengagements, etc. 

I do think they are worried that offense will spike like in AAA though. I kind of like the umps calling pitches, but the batter and catcher getting so many challenges a game. It was pretty quick and put a little strategy into the game. 

Either way, with Holliday's 70 grade eye, he would benefit.

I would think MLB would like to see offense spike, given the current state of things.  But also, I don't see why anyone wouldn't want the game played with a true strike zone.

It will benefit hitters more than pitchers, but ultimately the net impact on offense would be less than you might think. The pitchers would adjust and target certain parts of the zone where they are more likely to get calls (possibly the high strike, as umps tend to miss more often off the plate).  

Edited June 26 by ChuckS

[OnlyOneOriole]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

So in your opinion, let me see if I got this right, you cannot be a great baseball player without being a "great athlete"? You have surely heard of a guy named Babe Ruth right? I don't have the inclination nor interest to go through the litany/long list of baseball Hall of Famers who were by no means "great athletes".

Is Juan Soto a "great athlete"? Rafeal Devers? Isaac Paredes? Vladimir Guerrero Jr? Jose Ramirez? Yordan Alverez? Matt Olsen? Marcel Ozuna? ... I could go on and on.

You do understand that in baseball they don't run the 40 yard dash or need to jump long distances or high heights in order to succeed? You do know that baseball is a largely hand-eye coordination sport right?

Again, you strawman and put words in my mouth.    I just said everything that Tony-OH said (and I have said it many times before) and yet for some reason, to you and others, what he said was just fine, but what I said was not. 

Funny how that works.  There is a word for that.  It is called bias. 

Did or did I not say that JH should be a very good baseball player?  What do those words mean to you?   To me they mean above average to well above average.  Tony said the same.  I think people though are getting hypnotized by his 1 and 1 status, the quick rise through the minors, and all the hype that came with that and mistaking that for him being the next baseball savant/superstar as a sure thing. 

And when I have I ever said he is not a good athlete?  He is an excellent athlete I am sure.  He has to be in order to be in the position he is in.  I have never said he wasn't.  I have just said he isn't an elite athlete.  And you don't have to be an elite athlete to be a good baseball players or bball or football player.  Look around sports and you see that.  Most are not elite athletes.  But to be a true superstar/one of the best of a generation?  It sure in the hell makes a big difference.  A guy whose measurables jump off the page.  A guy who could probably play 2 other sports besides baseball and be good if not great at it. 

Bo Jackson was that way. 

Michael Jordan was that way. 

Deion Sanders was that way.

Herschel Walker was that way.

Notice what you see there?  They are all special special athletes.  Once in a generation athletes.

In no way do I see JH being that way.

Gunnar Henderson?  I see being that way and being that way x 100. 

 

[sportsfan8703]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'd say there's zippy chance of Basallo being up here this year.  I mean, maybe for a September call up and a few games in Baltimore but that all depends on the pennant race, etc.  No chance Basallo is on the postseason roster unless something unforseen happens.

3rd catcher/pinch hitter when you have a 26 man roster?  I mean there's a chance.  Especially for a 3 game series.  

We thought that Holliday would be our Miguel Cabrera type phenom for a postseason run.  We were close.  We have one.  It just might be Basallo.  Heck, maybe it's both. 

Edited June 26 by sportsfan8703

[maybenxtyr]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Oh, I also saw a Jackson vs Henderson "debate" in this thread somewhere. While I think Holliday is going to be a very good player, and yes, he out produced Henderson at the same levels at a younger age, but Henderson is a physical specimen/oddity due to size, athleticism, speed and arm. He's truly a 5-tool player and is the kind of player you build your franchise around.

I see more of a solid average to above average major leaguer in Holliday when I look at the tools vs a generational talent. If I had to choose between the two, it's not even close who I would choose, but that's not a hit on Holliday, but more of shout out to the kind of talent we're watching with Gunnar. I'll be honest, he very well may be the most athletic superstar the Orioles have ever had.

If Holliday can make himself a quality second baseman or maybe even transition to CF, he's going to be a very good player at the major league level at the top of a lineup as an on base machine. If the automatic strike zone gets adopted in some form at the major league level, and I believe it will be next year, he becomes even more dangerous.

That's a point I was trying to make earlier in the season, but you did a much better job than I. Holliday could turn out to be a great player, but still not be anywhere near what Henderson is. Once he gets his chance again hopefully he's ready because those 2 together would make an excellent combo.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Again, you strawman and put words in my mouth.    I just said everything that Tony-OH said (and I have said it many times before) and yet for some reason, to you and others, what he said was just fine, but what I said was not. 

Funny how that works.  There is a word for that.  It is called bias. 

Did or did I not say that JH should be a very good baseball player?  What do those words mean to you?   To me they mean above average to well above average.  Tony said the same.  I think people though are getting hypnotized by his 1 and 1 status, the quick rise through the minors, and all the hype that came with that and mistaking that for him being the next baseball savant/superstar as a sure thing. 

And when I have I ever said he is not a good athlete?  He is an excellent athlete I am sure.  He has to be in order to be in the position he is in.  I have never said he wasn't.  I have just said he isn't an elite athlete.  And you don't have to be an elite athlete to be a good baseball players or bball or football player.  Look around sports and you see that.  Most are not elite athletes.  But to be a true superstar/one of the best of a generation?  It sure in the hell makes a big difference.  A guy whose measurables jump off the page.  A guy who could probably play 2 other sports besides baseball and be good if not great at it. 

Bo Jackson was that way. 

Michael Jordan was that way. 

Deion Sanders was that way.

Herschel Walker was that way.

Notice what you see there?  They are all special special athletes.  Once in a generation athletes.

In no way do I see JH being that way.

Gunnar Henderson?  I see being that way and being that way x 100. 

 

Most players in the NFL and NBA are elite/explosive athletes just look at their measurables/testing numbers. As a matter of fact, when someone succeeds in the NBA in particular without being one it is an outlier (Luka Doncic). In football even the non-uber athletes (Offensive guards, defensive tackles, most tight ends are still fantastic athletes) Ever seen Aaron Donald up close Justin Madubuike?

However, baseball is a different game. Some baseball players are elite athletes. But many are not as it is not a requirement to be great at the sport, since it is mostly a hand-eye coordination sport.

Deion Sanders was a great athlete and an okay baseball player. Michael Jordan sucked at baseball. But again, I have to assume that you know this and are just typing words for the sake of it.

Do you think Tony Gwynn could beat any of those people in any kind of athletic contest? But yet he was miles and away a better baseball player.

[maybenxtyr]

1 hour ago, Il BuonO said:

 

Exactly this. While I appreciate he could be the guy, they are loaded at MIF. The more I watch Westburg the more I'm convinced he IS a dude. Calling up Mayo to play 3B I'm only slightly hesitant about because I've read regarding his defense. Westburg looks more comfortable at third to me, but I love that he's played 2B at a high level as well.

Nice to have so many options.

I'm not sure how they get there, but I believe that this is a better team with Westburg at 3B and ideally Holliday at 2B rather than Mayo at 3B and Westburg at 2B.

 

Actually, any combo will be better with Westburg at third.

[Sports Guy]

38 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Again, you strawman and put words in my mouth.    I just said everything that Tony-OH said (and I have said it many times before) and yet for some reason, to you and others, what he said was just fine, but what I said was not. 

Funny how that works.  There is a word for that.  It is called bias. 

Did or did I not say that JH should be a very good baseball player?  What do those words mean to you?   To me they mean above average to well above average.  Tony said the same.  I think people though are getting hypnotized by his 1 and 1 status, the quick rise through the minors, and all the hype that came with that and mistaking that for him being the next baseball savant/superstar as a sure thing. 

And when I have I ever said he is not a good athlete?  He is an excellent athlete I am sure.  He has to be in order to be in the position he is in.  I have never said he wasn't.  I have just said he isn't an elite athlete.  And you don't have to be an elite athlete to be a good baseball players or bball or football player.  Look around sports and you see that.  Most are not elite athletes.  But to be a true superstar/one of the best of a generation?  It sure in the hell makes a big difference.  A guy whose measurables jump off the page.  A guy who could probably play 2 other sports besides baseball and be good if not great at it. 

Bo Jackson was that way. 

Michael Jordan was that way. 

Deion Sanders was that way.

Herschel Walker was that way.

Notice what you see there?  They are all special special athletes.  Once in a generation athletes.

In no way do I see JH being that way.

Gunnar Henderson?  I see being that way and being that way x 100. 

 

But they weren’t all once in a generation players.  You don’t need to be an Uber elite athlete to be an elite baseball player. There are tons of examples of this that prove that to be true.

The other side to that is we have seen tons of incredible athletes that just mediocre performers…including a guy like Mateo right now.

Jeffrey Hammonds was another Uber athlete who didn’t accomplish a ton. 
 

Darnell McDonald was an athlete first guy who never developed.

Edited June 26 by Sports Guy

[sportsfan8703]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But they weren’t all once in a generation players.  You don’t need to be an Uber elite athlete to be an elite baseball player. There are tons of examples of this that prove that to be true.

The other side to that is we have seen tons of incredible athletes that just mediocre performers…including a guy like Mateo right now.

Jeffrey Hammond was another Uber athlete who didn’t accomplish a ton. 
 

Darnell McDonald was an athlete first guy who never developed.

Yup.  Nobody looked at Jose Altuve that way.  His combine stats would be terrible.  He's a HOF baseball player.  

[Il BuonO]

43 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I do think they are worried that offense will spike like in AAA though. I kind of like the umps calling pitches, but the batter and catcher getting so many challenges a game. It was pretty quick and put a little strategy into the game. 

And use of some sort of electronic umpiring negates one of Adley's biggest skills when he catches.