Passan: MLB Must Act Now on Pitching Injuries

[now]

22 minutes ago, 24fps said:

The size of the strike zone is another thing that MLB has control over.  Tinkering with all the things we're discussing will have the net effect of suppressing offense and I suspect that will be enough to prevent anything meaningful from happening.

Interesting new point here. Cue my pet peeve about the top of the strike zone being called at the belt instead of (correct me if I'm wrong on the rulebook) "at the letters."

[emmett16]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

 

In the book "The Arm" they alluded to this...The vast majority of injuries happen early in the season.  This year we aren't 100 days in yet (unless that includes Spring Training), but it points to pitchers not prepping their bodies off the field the way that they are going to be used on the field.  And not putting in the proper work in the off-season.  You can't go 80-90% in practice and then go 110% in games and not expect to get hurt.  Especially early in a season when you don' have the proper workload built up.  Not saying that is the only reason.  Obviously, these guys are pushing their bodies to the limits and that has become the norm. 

[Rbiggs2525]

The argument for Aroldis Chapman staying healthy is mechanical. He is one of very few pitchers whose elbow and hand are at 45 degree when plant foot lands. The coaches now teach the kind of snap action that drives up spin and velocity. Look at pictures of Nolan Ryan mechanics and then Striders. They are out there.
 

 

[emmett16]

3 hours ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Passan has actually changed his viewpoint on this which is a good thing to see in this day and age of media. As previously stated the reward is still higher than the risk of pitching with the new mechanics. If you are a high school sophomore looking to make Varsity, 87-88 is much better than 84. When you are a college junior a few MPH could be the difference in 100’s of thousands of dollars. Strider was close to signing a 200 million dollar contract. The person I listened to yesterday was using Verlander as example. He said there was a reason he went to ODU, not to bash the school. He was pitching with good mechanics and building healthy velocity. The interviewer asked specifically about Grayson and he is one of 95% of pitchers with bad mechanics. He also noted that Skenes looks like Mark Prior 2.0, which will be interesting to track.

 

One extra thing he noted was looking into pre-tacking balls to take off pressure in forearm. I personally think they could do something with the seams instead but interesting.

He went to ODU because he wasn't a huge draft prospect in HS and wasn't recruited heavily.  ODU has a very good program.  Historically one of the best baseball programs in VA.  They were perennial NCAA tournament participants throughout 90's and early 2000's.  Verlander grew significantly in college and started to add velocity.  He wasn't a power pitcher throwing gas in HS.  I posted the interview I believe you are referring to in a previous post. 

[AlbNYfan]

Rather stupid article IMO...especially the NOW of it. The only thing they could do now is use a pitching machine rather than a pitcher...and that's not going to happen.

For the most part, youth today throw more by the age of 12 than kids did by 18 years of age 30 years ago. Many Little Leagues back in the day allowed only 2 pitches...fastball and change up.

One camp I took my kids to was run by Jack Aker (Oakland A's...relief) he endorsed fastball, fastball, location...he also said watch your kid throw a snowball...that's his natural arm motion...don't mess with it.

Watching my grandkids play...50+ games schedules (60+games in hockey, same in basketball) throwing curves at 8 years of age, taught by coaches who don't have a clue of the arm mechanics, but they see YouTube and therefore it's all good...it's insane.

Body parts wear out hips, knees and even arms when put in stress situations. They worry about pitch counts and have rules in youth baseball, which is good. But, IMO there is more damage in what their throwing not the number of pitches.

[emmett16]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

There's nothing you can do.  And while it sucks for the pitchers to have to have TJ, there's a very small, cynical part of me that thinks they don't mind having to rehab (I'm aware that it's a lot of work) post surgery and get paid to do so.

The onus is on the players to show that a few seconds on the pitch clock would drastically cut down the number of TJ issues.  Seems silly to think that 5 extra seconds would really do much of a difference.

This is what the game has evolved to.  Do any of the pitchers want to stop their quest for adding 3-4 mph on their fastball?  Do any of the pitchers want to stop trying to spin the ball at insane rates?

 

Unless you're like Honeywell who missed being called up by a week or so before he blew out.  Talk about a massive turn in events.  18 month recovery at MLB minimum vs. minimum wage.  

[Sports Guy]

17 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

They're not going to change the baseball anytime soon, especially for something like this.

MLB wants steroid era stats without the steroids.  And they also want guys throwing 100 MPH.   

 

 Exactly right.

It’s like the NFL. They are “very worried” about player health but they won’t stop playing Thursday football and now it’s 17 and eventually will be 18 games.

They are all for changes as long as it doesn’t hurt their pockets.

[Sports Guy]

What I wonder is if you see pitchers called up faster?  Why waste the pitches in the minors if they only have so many?

If you are the Pirates, why is Skenes in the minors at all?  

It may be different for a HS kid but a college pitcher, One who is more physically mature?  Let them get their feet wet for a little while at not and then get them up.

[btdart20]

5 minutes ago, foxfield said:

This happens sure, but parents are not kicking and screaming about don't make my kid a star when this happens.  No they post film and stats on Facebook about their kid and tell em to keep grinding and throwing harder and glory lies ahead.  

It's easy to bash coaches...dad's and little league, but it's all of it.  I thought the Verlander interview offered some good insight.  And if MLB wants the games faster and thus the pitch clock, they should look for ways to incentivize pitchers like Jim Palmer.  He threw to contact and it worked out pretty well for him and for the O's.  

Yes the game has changed as Verlander mentioned.  The need for swings ands misses now is huge.  MLB could alter the ball, or even the distance of the mound.  Of course, HR's sell and strikes outs by pitchers get paid.

It is an interesting problem and it will require some true give and take by MLB and the MLBPA to make changes.  I am not optimistic as these two often seem driven by now versus the future...but it is what is needed.

I hear you.  Our cultural priorities are all over the map.  Especially in competitivd environments.  Parents/coaches alike grin and smile talking about coddling, etc. when it comes to pitch counts and throwing programs.

My experience has been parents only responding to arm injuries after the fact and not being preventative.  And coaches aren't much better because many are just parents themselves (like myself).  I have have had a few parents ask for stricter pitch counts than league rules after their son had arm issues pitching elsewhere.  And we've lost to coaches who throw kids to the wolves for one looong inning or blow by game/week limits.  I have even approached coaches after the game and they knew...  There's a growing push for an independent pitch count person as well.

Can pre-puberty little league shift to being more form/mechanics?  How does the local dad/coach know what to teach?

Can puberty-aged leagues shift to focusing on developing arm care habits?  How does that work when that age iswhen clubs start getting noticed?

Can post-puberty/HS be about all of the above and still decrease/limit injuries even with the amount of unknowns and a more competitive environment?  Many of these guys are less qualified than club coaches.

[Sports Guy]

For those of you who have been through it, is it throw as hard as you can and lots of breaking pitches for the kids?  Are coaches trying to get them to throw a changeup instead of the breaking ball, figuring that is less stress on the arm?

[foxfield]

3 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

I hear you.  Our cultural priorities are all over the map.  Especially in competitivd environments.  Parents/coaches alike grin and smile talking about coddling, etc. when it comes to pitch counts and throwing programs.

My experience has been parents only responding to arm injuries after the fact and not being preventative.  And coaches aren't much better because many are just parents themselves (like myself).  I have have had a few parents ask for stricter pitch counts than league rules after their son had arm issues pitching elsewhere.  And we've lost to coaches who throw kids to the wolves for one looong inning or blow by game/week limits.  I have even approached coaches after the game and they knew...  There's a growing push for an independent pitch count person as well.

Can pre-puberty little league shift to being more form/mechanics?  How does the local dad/coach know what to teach?

Can puberty-aged leagues shift to focusing on developing arm care habits?  How does that work when that age iswhen clubs start getting noticed?

Can post-puberty/HS be about all of the above and still decrease/limit injuries even with the amount of unknowns and a more competitive environment?  Many of these guys are less qualified than club coaches.

There are guidelines about usage that are easy to follow if leagues choose to do so.  I ran our local rec league for a few years.  We had pitch limits and tried to encourage coaches to pitch everyone,  with the idea that as a league we would develop more pitchers that way.  It worked reasonably well.  By far the biggest difficulty was father's who believed the rules were good, but didn't apply to their own child.  It was a constant battle.  And there were mothers who would text that we were hurting little Johnny by stealing his spotlight...at 10 years old.

[btdart20]

I'm not convinced the strike zone size will have the velo/spin impact they're hoping for.  What's to prevent a bigger zone being just more wiggle room for an uncontrolled FB with higher velo?  

The ball itself or sticky stuff can impact the spin effort.  But what prevents max effort to get a bigger break?

[btdart20]

4 minutes ago, foxfield said:

There are guidelines about usage that are easy to follow if leagues choose to do so.  I ran our local rec league for a few years.  We had pitch limits and tried to encourage coaches to pitch everyone,  with the idea that as a league we would develop more pitchers that way.  It worked reasonably well.  By far the biggest difficulty was father's who believed the rules were good, but didn't apply to their own child.  It was a constant battle.  And there were mothers who would text that we were hurting little Johnny by stealing his spotlight...at 10 years old.

Thanks for serving how you did.  And for caring for the players.

[MCO'sFan]

3 hours ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Passan has actually changed his viewpoint on this which is a good thing to see in this day and age of media. As previously stated the reward is still higher than the risk of pitching with the new mechanics. If you are a high school sophomore looking to make Varsity, 87-88 is much better than 84. When you are a college junior a few MPH could be the difference in 100’s of thousands of dollars. Strider was close to signing a 200 million dollar contract. The person I listened to yesterday was using Verlander as example. He said there was a reason he went to ODU, not to bash the school. He was pitching with good mechanics and building healthy velocity. The interviewer asked specifically about Grayson and he is one of 95% of pitchers with bad mechanics. He also noted that Skenes looks like Mark Prior 2.0, which will be interesting to track.

 

One extra thing he noted was looking into pre-tacking balls to take off pressure in forearm. I personally think they could do something with the seams instead but interesting.

ODU had/has a fine program. He wasn't heavily recruited and is from the area. I don't have a source but I have heard him say that he went to ODU because Pat McMohan was the head coach there. McMahon went on to be head coach at Florida and Mississippi State. He then coached for the Yankees in their player development system. He is an ABCA Hall of Fame coach and one of the best pitching coaches in the world.

Edited April 9 by MCO'sFan

[emmett16]

4 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

I hear you.  Our cultural priorities are all over the map.  Especially in competitivd environments.  Parents/coaches alike grin and smile talking about coddling, etc. when it comes to pitch counts and throwing programs.

My experience has been parents only responding to arm injuries after the fact and not being preventative.  And coaches aren't much better because many are just parents themselves (like myself).  I have have had a few parents ask for stricter pitch counts than league rules after their son had arm issues pitching elsewhere.  And we've lost to coaches who throw kids to the wolves for one looong inning or blow by game/week limits.  I have even approached coaches after the game and they knew...  There's a growing push for an independent pitch count person as well.

Can pre-puberty little league shift to being more form/mechanics?  How does the local dad/coach know what to teach?

Can puberty-aged leagues shift to focusing on developing arm care habits?  How does that work when that age iswhen clubs start getting noticed?

Can post-puberty/HS be about all of the above and still decrease/limit injuries even with the amount of unknowns and a more competitive environment?  Many of these guys are less qualified than club coaches.

Issue with all of it, is no one has any idea how much they are actually throwing unless it's tracked.  And if you do track it, it you have to manage that data and follow programming correctly.  And if you are tracking it and managing it correctly, you still have to make sure you are practicing proper arm care exercises to strengthen the muscles around the joints.  And you still have to throw with proper mechanics.  And if you do all that.....there is still a risk.  So, the real question is, is it worth the risk to you?  

 

But at the very least, I think young kids need to start tracking every throw they make.  Who cares if the kid throws 80-90 pitches in a game if he warmed up correctly with only 20-30 throws after a proper warm up and has not thrown any more that day?  I'm more concerned about the kid who plays IF or OF, who took 40-50 throws to warm up pregame.  Made 4-5 throws between each inning at full force, made a few max efforts throws in game, went to the bullpen to throw 20 warm up pitches, and then comes into the game and throws 30-40 pitches.  

Having been tracking throws consistently for over a year now, I can tell you the kids typically are throwing 50-100x more than what they thought they had in any given day.