Are we actually 27-14 with the highest runs/game in the AL?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, RarityFlaherty said:

So two playoff appearances and you’re ready to question his ability to close things out? I find it funny how so many are hesitant to make assumptions about players based on small sample sizes, but people are willing to make these huge assumptions about Elias based off of tiny sample sizes. People were also saying Elias couldn’t make a trade for a big name starter until he made the trade for Burnes.
 

And the playoffs are a crapshoot anyway. I’d give him at least a couple more years before I’m questioning whether or not he could get us to a world series. 

Boy you already had your reply ready no matter what I said eh?

And here I was thinking you were being reasonable for a change.

 

Yes, if two postseasons in a row he makes obviously questionable additions to the roster instead of more impactful moves despite having trade capital and payroll room it becomes a question.  How many more years to you give him at that point? 

Now do I think he's going to have a repeat of the 2023 deadline?  No I don't.  But if he does, he's opened the door to being criticized for it.

Let's be honest here, both the Flaherty and Fuji moves looked pretty questionable in real time, this isn't a case of hindsight. 

[RarityFlaherty]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

It’s open to discussion now.  I’ve seen it mentioned before.

And that’s how poorly run franchises do things. They are constantly in flux because they continue to change leadership when things don’t turn out as well as they’d hope. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

It’s open to discussion now.  I’ve seen it mentioned before.

I was responding to this.

56 minutes ago, interloper said:

Those people would be crazy. 

One person saying something and someone else calling them crazy...that's not discussion.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, RarityFlaherty said:

And that’s how poorly run franchises do things. They are constantly in flux because they continue to change leadership when things don’t turn out as well as they’d hope. 

Which isn't what would be happening in this very specific scenario.

[jabba72]

15 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

No, but it should be open to discussion at that point.

 

Really? I dont imagine many GM's being able to do what Elias has accomplished here. So I wouldn't fire Elias over not making a great deadline trade, sorry. Thats a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

[Spy Fox]

Two thoughts--

1, I think there are unrealistic expectations of what it's like to be a winning team. Great teams are good all the time, and they're good at every position on the field, right? Not necessarily. Winning teams--even elite teams--have weak links, cold streaks, and various types of adversity. The weak spots are worth attending to, but they don't mean the foundation is faltering. Some people react to the weak spots as if they are a smoking gun of impending doom, when really they're just a part of the marathon that great teams go through too. 

2, We're good enough that we're chasing championships. Each year only 1 team will succeed at that mission and 29 will fail. So there's a kind of fatalism that creeps in when the goal is something that requires so much to go right.

[RarityFlaherty]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Boy you already had your reply ready no matter what I said eh?

And here I was thinking you were being reasonable for a change.

 

Yes, if two postseasons in a row he makes obviously questionable additions to the roster instead of more impactful moves despite having trade capital and payroll room it becomes a question.  How many more years to you give him at that point? 

Now do I think he's going to have a repeat of the 2023 deadline?  No I don't.  But if he does, he's opened the door to being criticized for it.

Let's be honest here, both the Flaherty and Fuji moves looked pretty questionable in real time, this isn't a case of hindsight. 

What is that supposed to mean? What’s unreasonable about giving your GM more than two playoff appearances before you make that kind of decision? Like I said, being reactionary and constantly changing leadership is how poorly run franchises do things. I’m super optimistic about this team right now, but if we get rid of Elias because he doesn’t win us a World Series in his second playoff appearance, I’m going to be extremely pessimistic about this ownership team going forward. 

[interloper]

35 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Hold up a second.

If Elias comes out of this years trade deadline with the 2024 versions of Flaherty and Fuji and they wash out in the playoffs you don't think it's time to question his ability to close things out?

Those bullpen scenarios weren't part of RZNJ's initial comment. 

I was saying, yes, it would be crazy to call for Elias' head if the team gets bounced from the playoffs. I would be the first to engage in any fair criticism if that's the case AND he didn't make good deadline moves. But criticism is different from calling for the guy to be replaced. That would still register as a silly opinion to me. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, jabba72 said:

Really? I dont imagine many GM's being able to do what Elias has accomplished here. So I wouldn't fire Elias over not making a great deadline trade, sorry. Thats a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

We would be looking at him making multiple obviously questionable moves in consecutive years.  How many folks honestly liked either of the deals last season?

I'm not talking about trading for a guy and him under performing what was expected.  Flaherty was not good with the Cards last year and was trending down.  Fuji was below replacement level with the Angels.  They had assets to make more impactful moves and didn't.

If the goal is to stay in the playoff picture most of the time you don't have the discussion.  If the goal is to win a ring, you would start the discussion after two years of underwhelming additions.

 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, interloper said:

Those bullpen scenarios weren't part of RZNJ's initial comment. 

I was saying, yes, it would be crazy to call for Elias' head if the team gets bounced from the playoffs. I would be the first to engage in any fair criticism if that's the case AND he didn't make good deadline moves. But criticism is different from calling for the guy to be replaced. That would still register as a silly opinion to me. 

Sounds like we are not in disagreement.

Cool.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, RarityFlaherty said:

What is that supposed to mean? What’s unreasonable about giving your GM more than two playoff appearances before you make that kind of decision? Like I said, being reactionary and constantly changing leadership is how poorly run franchises do things. I’m super optimistic about this team right now, but if we get rid of Elias because he doesn’t win us a World Series in his second playoff appearance, I’m going to be extremely pessimistic about this ownership team going forward. 

Who said anything about making a decision?

 

[Frobby]

52 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

What I meant to say is I don’t consider making the playoffs a lock.  SG started a thread yesterday like it’s a sure thing.

It’s not a lock yet.  Fangraphs has the O’s at 87.7%, so basically 7-1 odds in favor.  That feels close to right.   

[RarityFlaherty]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Who said anything about making a decision?

 

Well if you’re saying that after two disappointing playoff appearances that you are going to question his ability to close things out, then you have a decision to make whether you keep him or replace him. That’s just a ridiculous thing to start thinking about after only two playoff appearances. 

[RZNJ]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

We would be looking at him making multiple obviously questionable moves in consecutive years.  How many folks honestly liked either of the deals last season?

I'm not talking about trading for a guy and him under performing what was expected.  Flaherty was not good with the Cards last year and was trending down.  Fuji was below replacement level with the Angels.  They had assets to make more impactful moves and didn't.

If the goal is to stay in the playoff picture most of the time you don't have the discussion.  If the goal is to win a ring, you would start the discussion after two years of underwhelming additions.

 

I guess we could argue over what constitutes a trend but Flaherty, arguably, had his best month of the year in July (5 starts 3.03 ERA).  One could certainly argue that he was trending up at the time of the trade.

 

P.S.  Fuji was with the A’s.

Edited May 17 by RZNJ

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I guess we could argue over what constitutes a trend but Flaherty, arguably, had his best month of the year in July (5 starts 3.03 ERA).  One could certainly argue that he was trending up at the time of the trade.

 

P.S.  Fuji was with the A’s.

Sorry, right the A's.