Rafael Palmeiro - questions for the old guys

[SteveA]

1 hour ago, Flash- bd said:

Giving that aging curves are more normal these days it certainly feels like they are much less prevalent. Unnatural aging curves like Palmeiro or Steve Finley or a million other examples we know one of the big reasons why. 

 

Re: the question, Freddie Freeman occured to me as well as a comparison, @Too Tall. 

Best story I have is in his 2004 season, second time around, I saw him hit a couple of HRs in a game at Camden Yards in which Bonds also homered. That was before, I believe, the steroid stuff came out or was proven and I was loving Raffy (I believe he slumped really badly in the second half of that season as long as the rest of the team, with the steroid stuff...think I remember a terrible, terrible July and August for the team?). Most of us thought he was just a 'pure' baseball player and that the steroid stuff wouldn't apply to him. 95 and especially our wild card season in 96 were two of the first seasons I remember really following baseball and he was amazing. It's kind of crazy that he didn't get an all-star berth in '96 with a .927 OPS...

I was at that game when he and Bonds homered.  I think it was [the only or one of only a few] games in MLB history where two guys with 500+ career HRs hit home runs.

 

[Safelykept]

3 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Palmeiro was arguably better than Murray at least in his time with the O's he put up better power numbers. He was amazing here, just stayed in the game too long (almost 40?) and got burnt. 

Better Than Murray? Come on man.

[jabba72]

Now comparing Murray and Palmeiro's careers Eddie was far superior in OPS+ when comparing their time in Baltimore. I was around and watching for Raffy's era so I remember him better, but it looks like Murray had the better career.

[wildcard]

Raffy provided power and good defense to several good O's team.   But the lasting image in my head is of him shaking his finger and saying he did not do drugs.   Kind of spoiled the whole thing  about him for me..

I, unlike others, hope the steroid users and Rose never make it into the HOF.    They made it so other players were not playing on a level playing field.  Very selfish.   They got their money.  Now go away.

One of the reasons we like the current O's players so much is their character.   

[Say O!]

41 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

 

Back to Palmeiro, I liked him, but felt he came up small too often in high leverage situations with the Orioles. I remember him as a guy who seemed to hit a lot of home runs when the team was up or down a lot, but when I go back and look at his leverage numbers that was actually not true.

It's funny how my memory of him and how I felt about him at the time was probably based off a few times that he didn't do well in key situations, but without having baseball reference or Baseball savant, my memory was burned in with that bias.

Yeah I kinda had that impression too.  Maybe it was b/c Raffy was sorta meh in the playoffs with the O’s?

Raffy career clutch and leverage stats for reference

 

[Safelykept]

5 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Raffy provided power and good defense to several good O's team.   But the lasting image in my head is of him shaking his finger and saying he did not do drugs.   Kind of spoiled the whole thing  about him for me..

I, unlike others, hope the steroid users and Rose never make it into the HOF.    They made it so other players were not playing on a level playing field.  Very selfish.   They got their money.  Now go away.

One of the reasons we like the current O's players so much is their character.   

Agree 100% thats the problem with wide spread cheating, everybody gets folded into the cut.

[Roll Tide]

2 hours ago, kidrock said:

Hey O’s hangout faithful, a few questions for the older cats on here.  I was pretty young during his era:

1. Was Palmeiro thought of as one of the best players in the league year in, year out.  His numbers looking back are incredible, but I don’t recall him being a star.  Maybe he just had a more quiet personality, or it was the fact that so many guys were hitting home runs.  Just wondering what the perception was at the time.

2. Seeing his age 35-39 seasons is just crazy when you think about the current day aging curves of these players.  Did you like baseball better when players had much longer career arcs or do you prefer today’s young man’s game.  Just looking at some of the seasons for older ball players back in the steroid era seem mind boggling relative to today.

3.  Share a story about him that the young guys wouldn’t have been aware of.

Thanks

 

 

1) He had a sweet swing! It took PEDs for him to have the power. Without looking at his numbers he was a clutch hitter. He was a very quiet player. 
 

2) I don’t favor one error more than the other. Don’t care about PEDs! Everyone was doing it. 
 

3) He was a nice likable guy and an excellent signing. I’m glad we got him over Will Clark despite the front office wanting Clark. He was the better player. As usual our front office sucked and would’ve make the wrong decision had Clark chosen Baltimore.

[baltfan]

I kinda think Devers is a comp.  Better than people give him credit for but not a top 10 player. 

[gamiliel]

31 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Palmeiro was arguably better than Murray at least in his time with the O's he put up better power numbers. He was amazing here, just stayed in the game too long (almost 40?) and got burnt. 

His overall numbers are better on the surface. But Murray had far more big hits in clutch situations. He was money! (Much like Molitor and Baines)

[forphase1]

One thing i loved about him was his consistency.  He never really had a 'bad' year, not do I recall him being streaky.  Unlike a Mountcastle today, for example, who can get hot and carry a team for a month then just disappear the next month and be a black hole,  I don't recall Raffy doing such.   Don't get me wrong,  every player has a off few days here and there.   But I don't remember Raffy going ice cold for weeks at a time.  

Now I'm sure someone will find a spell where he was bad for a month to prove me wrong.    but in my defense I was working nights back then so I didn't get to watch each game like I do now,  but certainly caught the highlights and box scores.  

As others have said,  he was really,  really good if not elite... but he was close.   

[SemperFi]

42 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

If Jeff Bagwell is in the HoF, then they really need to open it up to all of the steroid players. Can't allow one in just because he never admitted to it or got caught. 

Raffy was a sweet swinging left first baseman who issues with the Cubs was he just didn't hit for power. A few magic syringes later, Raffy became a 30 then a 40 home run hitter. 

Now I won't turn this into a steroid conversation, but I do agree with the folks that think the steroid guys belong in. I never would have said that in the past, but in the end, almost everyone great was doing steroids during the era including the pitchers. All of them got power and velocity jumps do to the 'roids and anyone that suggests they didn't have an effect are not looking at the obvious statistical gains.

Maybe part of it is knowing very good players like Harold Baines are in the hall. Is there a team that would have preferred Baines over Palmeiro in their prime. Nope. 

Maybe just create a Steroids era wing or have a mention somewhere of the steroid era timeframe and let the people decide if they think the players did them or not.

At the end of the day, Palmeiro and all of the steroid era stars provided a lot of fun to the fans. And as others have stated, players have been cheating for years to include greenies and performance enhancing drugs. 

Guys like Palmeiro and Bagwell, along with several others, SUDDENLY became power hitters and started putting up video game power numbers. But why is Bagwell in the hall and Palmeiro is not. The finger wag? 

I've been against the steroids guys getting in but I've changed my mind on the situation. If MLB is going to add in Negro Leagues as a major league for records, and allow other players into the hall that certainly should be questioned based on sudden power surges during the steroid era, then let them all into the hall. 

Well I guess I did turn this into a steroid post afterall. lol

Back to Palmeiro, I liked him, but felt he came up small too often in high leverage situations with the Orioles. I remember him as a guy who seemed to hit a lot of home runs when the team was up or down a lot, but when I go back and look at his leverage numbers that was actually not true.

It's funny how my memory of him and how I felt about him at the time was probably based off a few times that he didn't do well in key situations, but without having baseball reference or Baseball savant, my memory was burned in with that bias.

Either way, count me in the camp that Palmeiro and his 500+ home runs and 3000+ hits belongs in the HoF.

 

 

 

For most of us of a somewhat similar age I remember Palmiero in comparison to Eddie and it bears in mind to remember how clutch Eddie was:

-he is the all time MLB leader in SF's (ironically Cal is 2nd)-although SF's weren't always official before 1940.  

-#1 in MLB history in RBI's with bases loaded at 299

-#4 all time OPS with bases loaded at 1.127

-He is the only player to finish in the top 5 for 5 consecutive years and and not win a MVP, 5 others have also done so but have won a combined 19 MVP awards.

[Roll Tide]

3 minutes ago, baltfan said:

I kinda think Devers is a comp.  Better than people give him credit for but not a top 10 player. 

I had to look after reading your comment. From 92-97 he was in the top 10 MVP voting 3 times. In 11 seasons from 1993 to 2003 he hit 433 home runs which is an average of 39. Id say he was a top 10 player!

[BRobinsonfan]

58 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

Palmeiro was arguably better than Murray at least in his time with the O's he put up better power numbers. He was amazing here, just stayed in the game too long (almost 40?) and got burnt. 

Palmeiro retired at 40, Murray at 41. 

[Billy F-Face3]

When he was signed, it felt like a huge signal that the Orioles were now going to compete for a championship. That's how big of a star was at the time when he was a free agent coming from Texas. 

So in his day, he was a very productive and prestigious player. Be we all know now that it wasn't legit, which is why nobody cares about his legacy in baseball anymore.

[btownoriole]

I had mixed feelings on Palmeiro.  At the time they signed him I was hoping for Clark because I felt he was a better clutch player (probably because I remember him playing so well in the ‘89 NLCS).  Palmeiro certainly produced but he came up small in the ‘97 LCS.

On the other question, I much prefer today’s “aging curve.”  Otherwise the big spenders would have an even bigger advantage.