Rafael Palmeiro - questions for the old guys

[Moose Milligan]

6 hours ago, baltfan said:

List of guys better than him

ARod

Griffey

Frank Thomas

Mark McGwire

Roberto Alomar

Mo Vaughn

Jim Thome

Albert Belle

Ivan Rodriguez

Piazza

Bonds

Chipper

Sheffield

Bagwell

Biggio

Larkin

Ok, so what?

 

[Moose Milligan]

 

 

Walkoff celebrations against the Yankees were much more tame in '97.

 

 

 

[Ohfan67]

I was a huge fan. Was super bummed when he got busted. Was bummed yet again when he tried to blame it on Tejada. Man up or shut up. 

[Moose Milligan]

Also, in regard to his power surge...he hit a lot of doubles in his Cubs days as well as his early days with the Rangers.  I've been told several times on here that hitting doubles eventually turns to homers.

My official stance is...I really don't care that he juiced.  I don't care when he started.  I can see a case that he didn't at all until Canseco got to Texas in '92.  He still hit 49 doubles the year before and 41 back in '88, I think he had plenty of power.  

I can also see a case that he didn't start juicing until he came back from the Rangers for his second tour here in an effort to chase 3,000 hits.  

At the end of the day, when he started or did he/didn't he, it's whatever.  The dude belongs in the Hall of Fame. 

[SemperFi]

4 hours ago, Jim'sKid26 said:

I had forgotten about the Cindy Sandberg rumors. Apparently that factored in his trade away from Chicago. You have an impressive fund of knowledge!

Thanks Jim, unfortunately most of my knowledge is trivia like this!!

 Another good one for you-after the rumors hit the Cubs essentially forced to trade him along with Jamie Moyer to the Rangers for Mitch Williams.  Williams went on to produce ~2.3WAR for the Cubs while Moyer/Palmiero went on to produce ~117.8 WAR for the rest of their career-one of the worst trades in MLB history.

[SemperFi]

32 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Also, in regard to his power surge...he hit a lot of doubles in his Cubs days as well as his early days with the Rangers.  I've been told several times on here that hitting doubles eventually turns to homers.

My official stance is...I really don't care that he juiced.  I don't care when he started.  I can see a case that he didn't at all until Canseco got to Texas in '92.  He still hit 49 doubles the year before and 41 back in '88, I think he had plenty of power.  

I can also see a case that he didn't start juicing until he came back from the Rangers for his second tour here in an effort to chase 3,000 hits.  

At the end of the day, when he started or did he/didn't he, it's whatever.  The dude belongs in the Hall of Fame. 

Hi Moose-I'm not one for putting them in the Hall but the most compelling argument to me is that MLB was tacidly complicit, they tried to blame it all on the union but they loved the exposure, increase in attendance and revenue the steroid era provided.  But then again the HOF is a seperate entity from MLB.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, SemperFi said:

Hi Moose-I'm not one for putting them in the Hall but the most compelling argument to me is that MLB was tacidly complicit, they tried to blame it all on the union but they loved the exposure, increase in attendance and revenue the steroid era provided.  But then again the HOF is a seperate entity from MLB.

I get and respect the argument of not letting them in the Hall, too.  I used to feel that way.

Totally believe MLB was complicit, the union was...I mean, they needed to bounce back after the '94 strike.  Cal played a part in that, but that was one event...they needed to get people excited about the game again.  

In regard to the Hall argument...MLB baseball has never been on the up and up...gambling scandals, keeping an entire race of people from playing the game...guys taking greenies, owner collusion in the mid 80s against free agents...I mean, it's never been always clean.  That, and I think it's a museum to talk about the history of the game.  I think it's a bit silly that they could have a Bonds exhibit, a Rose exhibit...and then they draw the line at the plaques.  These are the same voters who were giving these guys MVP awards, too.

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, SemperFi said:

Thanks Jim, unfortunately most of my knowledge is trivia like this!!

 Another good one for you-after the rumors hit the Cubs essentially forced to trade him along with Jamie Moyer to the Rangers for Mitch Williams.  Williams went on to produce ~2.3WAR for the Cubs while Moyer/Palmiero went on to produce ~117.8 WAR for the rest of their career-one of the worst trades in MLB history.

Oh, I didn't know this about Moyer:

https://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2023/11/21/23963005/cubs-trades-expansion-era-1988

Quote

As for Moyer, he’d had a pretty good year in ‘88 but... well, the Cubs chose Kilgus and Wilson instead.

If you’re not familiar with this story, or even if you are, it bears repeating here. Moyer had two mediocre years in Texas and one bad one in St. Louis in ‘91 and the Cardinals released him. The Cubs signed him to a minor league deal before Spring Training in 1992. The Cubs were going to release him after camp, as he hadn’t thrown well, and offered him a minor league coaching job. He told then-GM Larry Himes, “I think I can still pitch,” and turned down the offer.

It took him another year for him to get back to the majors with the Orioles, but Moyer pitched 19 MLB seasons after that release by the Cubs, finishing in the top six of Cy Young voting three times and being a key part of the Phillies rotation in their World Series winning year of 2008. Moyer’s a borderline Hall of Famer. They should have kept him, both times they let him go.

 

[Roll Tide]

8 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Ok, so what?

 

He’s arguing that Palmeiro wasn’t a top player in his hay day.

[25 Nuggets]

17 hours ago, btownoriole said:

I had mixed feelings on Palmeiro.  At the time they signed him I was hoping for Clark because I felt he was a better clutch player (probably because I remember him playing so well in the ‘89 NLCS).  Palmeiro certainly produced but he came up small in the ‘97 LCS.

On the other question, I much prefer today’s “aging curve.”  Otherwise the big spenders would have an even bigger advantage.

This is a very good point and may have had a small part in why the Steroid Era was allowed to flourish by MLB looking the other way for so long.  The best, big market teams were stocked with PED users including the Orioles (who were fairly big market in Angelos's early years).

Edited June 9 by 25 Nuggets

[25 Nuggets]

8 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Ok, so what?

 

Maybe it's pointing out the absurd numbers of the Steroid Era, Idunno

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

He’s arguing that Palmeiro wasn’t a top player in his hay day.

That's just silly.

 

39 minutes ago, 25 Nuggets said:

Maybe it's pointing out the absurd numbers of the Steroid Era, Idunno

It was absurd, but that's okay.

[baltfan]

10 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Ok, so what?

 

The original post asked for some perspective on what Palmeiro was like.  I said he was a really good player and thought of as such, but not thought of as a top 10 type player.  Someone challenged that.  I was just pointing out the accuracy of my statement.  I loved Palmeiro when he was here and still think he has the most effortless swing I have ever seen.  I wish we knew what his bat speed was because it always seemed very slow but he got amazing results. 

[Grady]

He has the stats for the Hall, doesn’t he have 3000 hits? How many Hr?

 Where he lost me as a great player, when he sat out in the playoffs against Randy Johnson. A great play plays, wants to compete there

[dystopia]

3 minutes ago, Grady said:

He has the stats for the Hall, doesn’t he have 3000 hits? How many Hr?

 Where he lost me as a great player, when he sat out in the playoffs against Randy Johnson. A great play plays, wants to compete there

Yes, 569 HRs. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and Clemens all had stats for the Hall too.