Hyde Hot Seat

[LookinUp]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

So you aren’t firing just to fire him and you think someone would do a better job but you don’t know who that person is or even if they are available?  
 

nope, nothing knee jerk about this at all!

Actually, I'm saying I wouldn't fire him just to fire him. I'd fire him if my impression that he doesn't really bring anything to the table is true. Obviously I don't have inside information on this, but I see nothing in Hyde from the outside looking in that jumps out as a plus manager, while I also see little things that a plus manager would fix.

For example, I see lack of hustle out of the new guys in particular. Unacceptable. Set the tone. I see Adley as a lazy pitch framer. Unacceptable. I see a team that is slumping, but not mixing things up offensively by bunting or executing productive ABs by moving runners.

When I see Blake Snell mowing us down, I need to change something. How about you make him field 3 bunts. Get him off of his spot. Change his though process when he's about to pitch. Do SOMETHING. 

I see no creativity. I don't see leadership. I see a guy that people are supporting because he's the guy that's there and he seems like a good dude. Wonderful, but at some point we need an active leader who can be a real baseball manager who isn't completely constrained by analytics.

[accinfo]

8 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Actually, I'm saying I wouldn't fire him just to fire him. I'd fire him if my impression that he doesn't really bring anything to the table is true. Obviously I don't have inside information on this, but I see nothing in Hyde from the outside looking in that jumps out as a plus manager, while I also see little things that a plus manager would fix.

For example, I see lack of hustle out of the new guys in particular. Unacceptable. Set the tone. I see Adley as a lazy pitch framer. Unacceptable. I see a team that is slumping, but not mixing things up offensively by bunting or executing productive ABs by moving runners.

 

What lack of hustle are you talking about? You may see a lack of hitting but point out where that translate to a lack of hustle by anyone on this club.  

[maybenxtyr]

I don't believe another manager would have had different results. If they fired him it would just be a "show" type of move. 

 

 

[LGOrioles]

21 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

But that’s just not true because you are coming up with a very weird and quite frankly unrealistic hypothetical. The injuries are unquestionably the biggest reason.  Nothing is even close.

If you want to say in spite of the injuries, if players were performing, we would have a better chance at the division, I agree with that.

Saying those players not performing is a bigger reason for this “collapse” is just not an opinion founded on reality. Even if you overlook the talent level of those out for the team, look at the crap that is getting the at bats instead. The white Sox field better options than many of these guys.

How is it weird or unrealistic to say that their best players all under performing is more impactful than the injuries they’ve had? If you split it up between the first 75 games and last 76, Gunnar has dropped 2.1 WAR, Rutschman 2.8, O’Hearn 1.1, and Mountcastle 1.7. The position players were worth 15.9 WAR the first 75 games and have been worth 10.2 WAR since. The pitching was worth 10.9 WAR the first 75 games and has been worth 5.6 WAR since. So that’s 11 WAR difference (5.7 for the position players and 5.3 for the pitchers) with Rutschman, Henderson, O’Hearn, and Mountcastle accounting for 7.7 WAR between themselves.

The injuries do clearly play a part (among other things like luck, sequencing, etc). but I don’t see how it’s unrealistic to say the dramatic drop offs from those 4 guys (and hell Burnes too) is a bigger factor. 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, LGOrioles said:

How is it weird or unrealistic to say that their best players all under performing is more impactful than the injuries they’ve had? If you split it up between the first 75 games and last 76, Gunnar has dropped 2.1 WAR, Rutschman 2.8, O’Hearn 1.1, and Mountcastle 1.7. The position players were worth 15.9 WAR the first 75 games and have been worth 10.2 WAR since. The pitching was worth 10.9 WAR the first 75 games and has been worth 5.6 WAR since. So that’s 11 WAR difference (5.7 for the position players and 5.3 for the pitchers) with Rutschman, Henderson, O’Hearn, and Mountcastle accounting for 7.7 WAR between themselves.

The injuries do clearly play a part (among other things like luck, sequencing, etc). but I don’t see how it’s unrealistic to say the dramatic drop offs from those 4 guys (and hell Burnes too) is a bigger factor. 

You were saying all of those guys for a full season..that’s not realistic imo.

And it’s clear the injuries are a bigger factor. I just don’t see how anyone can argue anything else.

[Sports Guy]

This team is not collapsing because some players aren’t performing to the expectations. They are collapsing because too many players are out and too many players replacing them are below replace level guys.  Not to mention, other guys are struggling partially as a result of playing too much due to those injuries.

 

[LGOrioles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

You were saying all of those guys for a full season..that’s not realistic imo.

And it’s clear the injuries are a bigger factor. I just don’t see how anyone can argue anything else.

Idk I would take a best player in the league version of Gunnar, 6 WAR Adley, and the best version of O’Hearn/Mountcastle over how they’ve played the last 3 months with a healthy Westburg, Urias, and Mateo.

They both play a part, hopefully these struggling hitters can turn it around for the playoffs because with Westburg, Urias, Rodriguez, and Coulombe back they can beat anyone in the AL if they play well.

[sportsfan8703]

20 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This team is not collapsing because some players aren’t performing to the expectations. They are collapsing because too many players are out and too many players replacing them are below replace level guys.  Not to mention, other guys are struggling partially as a result of playing too much due to those injuries.

 

But I was promised all offseason that it would be addition by subtraction if Mateo and Urias were not on this team and instead Mayo and Holliday were.

Hmm... now they are the reason the offense isn't performing?  Losing Westburg is a clear loss.  But Mateo and Urias?  Now we want to admit that they have value?

Edited 19 hours ago by sportsfan8703

[Sammy Seagull]

it's time for Hyde to move on, he should walk away with his head held high before this weekend. He has given all he can and is no use to the team.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

But I was promised all offseason that it would be addition by subtraction if Mateo and Urias were not on this team and instead Mayo and Holliday were.

Hmm... now they are the reason the offense isn't performing?  Losing Westburg is a clear loss.  But Mateo and Urias?  Now we want to admit that they have value?

They have always had value

[Brooks The Great]

7 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

But I was promised all offseason that it would be addition by subtraction if Mateo and Urias were not on this team and instead Mayo and Holliday were.

Hmm... now they are the reason the offense isn't performing?  Losing Westburg is a clear loss.  But Mateo and Urias?  Now we want to admit that they have value?

The offense didn't collapse because of losing Mateo and Urias.

The culprits in no particular order:

- Norby being traded when he was sorely needed for depth. Elias was reckless to give him away when an injury to any of Westburg, Gunnar, Holliday, Santander, Cowser, Mullins would have opened up regular playing time for Norby, and Norby should have been playing more before he was traded anyway, especially given this team's unbalanced makeup in favor of left-handed hitters. I've been advocating for Norby playing more all season (including over Mateo at 2B), even saying mutliple times and at multiple points in the season that he should have made the Opening Day roster over Tony Kemp.

- Adley cratering to be one of the literal 5 worst hitters in MLB for a stretch in the second half, perhaps due to injury.

- O'Hearn collapsing in the second half for a 2nd straight season. I criticized Elias for both bringing him back to block other younger players at DH (Norby, Kjerstad, Mayo) and also for not selling high on him and trading him prior to the deadline.

- The Eloy acquisition being a waste of time and waste of the DH spot when he starts, as I also stated at the time the trade was made. Eloy has sucked hard for the past month, and he should be released next.

- Santander is a streaky and fairly one dimensional hitter. When he's not hitting home runs, he doesn't add much value in terms of reaching base. He cooled off considerably right around the time the offense sunk to a new low over the most recent few weeks. Gunnar can't carry the offense by himself when Adley and O'Hearn have been sinking the lineup in the top 4 spots most of July, August, and September. 

[Baseball fandom]

Personally I'm on he fence. Injuries have to be under consideration but man have they fallen apart. I'm fine giving him another year or letting him go either way. 

[Baseball fandom]

If they would make a change which I don't think they will the guy who was getting a lot of love around the league at one time was Carlos Beltran. Of course that was before he was part of the Astros scandal. 

[MCO'sFan]

41 minutes ago, LGOrioles said:

How is it weird or unrealistic to say that their best players all under performing is more impactful than the injuries they’ve had? If you split it up between the first 75 games and last 76, Gunnar has dropped 2.1 WAR, Rutschman 2.8, O’Hearn 1.1, and Mountcastle 1.7. The position players were worth 15.9 WAR the first 75 games and have been worth 10.2 WAR since. The pitching was worth 10.9 WAR the first 75 games and has been worth 5.6 WAR since. So that’s 11 WAR difference (5.7 for the position players and 5.3 for the pitchers) with Rutschman, Henderson, O’Hearn, and Mountcastle accounting for 7.7 WAR between themselves.

The injuries do clearly play a part (among other things like luck, sequencing, etc). but I don’t see how it’s unrealistic to say the dramatic drop offs from those 4 guys (and hell Burnes too) is a bigger factor. 

I would not look at these numbers in a vacuum. There many intangibles that come into play regarding the injuries that may have contributed to the drop in performance from players. Not to mention players like Adley that appear to be playing through nagging injuries. 

[MCO'sFan]

1 minute ago, Baseball fandom said:

If they would make a change which I don't think they will the guy who was getting a lot of love around the league at one time was Carlos Beltran. Of course that was before he was part of the Astros scandal. 

Someone on another thread mentioned a Dusty Baker/Ron Washington type. I would hate that.