Anyone still want to make a compelling argument against rebuilding?

[bgfield]

The timing of this thread is funny. I do agree with a rebuild but last night our offense clicked and our starting pitching performed. We lost night because of, again, the bullpen. And the bullpen is still the most glaring weakness of this team, and it's now approaching numbers that would make it the worst in the majors (its losses is already the worst. The bullpen ERA is only .40 points behind Tampa, and Tampa's already got the worst bullpen in major league history).

[NewMarketSean]

:lol: You're gonna be mad either way. You'll find something, bro, you know you will.

Well it's hard to be mad when the team is winning.

LOL some people think I'll be crapping all over the team if they are 10 games above .500 at the ASB.

Some guys have some distorted opinions about me.

[NewMarketSean]

Oh no, not that!!!!!! Anything but that!!!!!

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

HULK SMASH!!!

[Fan4Life]

Anyone?

Bueller?

Well I suppose the question to answer first would be whether you trust the current management to get the guys that will lead to the change we desire. Bradford and Walker's stats don't look bad, but have they played to our expectations of them? Hoey was superman in AAA, but seems to be putting more bad back-to-back performances than good ones. Baez hasn't been good.

[bgfield]

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

HULK SMASH!!!

Maybe you can get pissed off and then we can sign you as a DH!

[The Wedge]

Well it's hard to be mad when the team is winning.

LOL some people think I'll be crapping all over the team if they are 10 games above .500 at the ASB.

Some guys have some distorted opinions about me.

Well, only the most optimistic people on the planet will think that it'll take anything beyond a miracle showing from the talent to give us a true winning season in the foreseeable future. That's kinda what I meant. Unless next year is like a Why Not year, you'll find something.

[AlBumbry]

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

HULK SMASH!!!

I don't like you when you're not angry!

[NewMarketSean]

Well, only the most optimistic people on the planet will think that it'll take anything beyond a miracle showing from the talent to give us a true winning season in the foreseeable future. That's kinda what I meant. Unless next year is like a Why Not year, you'll find something.

I wasn't talking about you Wedge. I know what you meant.

But I can't wait to post a thread on the day after the season ends asking all the O's homers where the "improvement" they're always alluding to is coming from when we've progressively gotten worse since 2004.

Because we'll be lucky to win 70 games this year.

[Greg Pappas]

Sure.

Under Trembley in July the team went 15-10.

The team scored 4.84 runs per game in 25 games.

The team ERA was 4.13 for the month.

In August the team is 8-17.

The team has scored 4.8 runs per games in 25 games.

The team's ERA is 6.83 for the month. The problem has been in large part the bullpen.

Fix the bullpen and you have a winning team.

I'm shaking my head so much, I have a migraine coming on.

This is the reason we continue to wallow in mediocrity, or even beneath mediocrity. It's this call to stand by our guys year in and year out and think that 'If only we could fix this one thing...'

This team never learns. We need changes implemented to the general makeup of the team, not to one specific part of it. We would not be contenders with a better bullpen.

I guess we will agree to disagree, but look at the results over the past decade. I can only hope that MacPhail does something big, something constructive; he changes course.

[The Wedge]

I wasn't talking about you Wedge. I know what you meant.

But I can't wait to post a thread on the day after the season ends asking all the O's homers where the "improvement" they're always alluding to is coming from when we've progressively gotten worse since 2004.

Because we'll be lucky to win 70 games this year.

Fair enough, carry on.

[Fan4Life]

I wasn't talking about you Wedge. I know what you meant.

But I can't wait to post a thread on the day after the season ends asking all the O's homers where the "improvement" they're always alluding to is coming from when we've progressively gotten worse since 2004.

Because we'll be lucky to win 70 games this year.

That's a good question... generally speaking, the bullpen has been our downfall period. The rest of the areas have been good-adequate. Now, then the question should be, are the guys our FO added last season the wrong guys to have shown improvement? My answer would be, that while you can make a case that some of them are over-paid, I can't think from looking at their track record they would have been as bad as they have been. In that regard, I can't fault the FO for that.. the players haven't performed as expected.

[DrungoHazewood]

Sure.

Under Trembley in July the team went 15-10.

The team scored 4.84 runs per game in 25 games.

The team ERA was 4.13 for the month.

In August the team is 8-17.

The team has scored 4.8 runs per games in 25 games.

The team's ERA is 6.83 for the month. The problem has been in large part the bullpen.

Fix the bullpen and you have a winning team.

You're right. If Millar, Hernandez, Payton, Tejada, Roberts, Huff, and Mora buck the trends and don't fall off next year. If Bedard and Guthrie continue to pitch as well as any two starters in the majors. If the Orioles can find a center fielder. If they can capably find someone to take Trachsel's innings. If July is somehow more representative of this team's ability than the other four months of the season. If, if, if, if...

If they don't make major changes at key positions this winter they'll have lost ground compared to spring 2007. They'll be older at many spots, while hoping that everything falls into place so they can win 82 games.

[tim27]

You're right. If Millar, Hernandez, Payton, Tejada, Roberts, Huff, and Mora buck the trends and don't fall off next year. If Bedard and Guthrie continue to pitch as well as any two starters in the majors. If the Orioles can find a center fielder. If they can capably find someone to take Trachsel's innings. If July is somehow more representative of this team's ability than the other four months of the season. If, if, if, if...

If they don't make major changes at key positions this winter they'll have lost ground compared to spring 2007. They'll be older at many spots, while hoping that everything falls into place so they can win 82 games.

Not to be too argumentative- because I firmly believe we need to rebuild- but you're reasoning here is wrong, imo. This team won in July mainly with Tejada and Mora on the DL, Traschel as well or pitching as poorly as he has all year, and Hernandez can't get any worse imo next year. This team is like any team in that it will have some winning months, but all in all, it is poorly constructed. I've gone ahead and bolded the biggest IF for you and right now I've got to say it is a resounding NO!

[AlBumbry]

You're right. If Millar, Hernandez, Payton, Tejada, Roberts, Huff, and Mora buck the trends and don't fall off next year. If Bedard and Guthrie continue to pitch as well as any two starters in the majors. If the Orioles can find a center fielder. If they can capably find someone to take Trachsel's innings. If July is somehow more representative of this team's ability than the other four months of the season. If, if, if, if...

If they don't make major changes at key positions this winter they'll have lost ground compared to spring 2007. They'll be older at many spots, while hoping that everything falls into place so they can win 82 games.

I think you're going overboard with the whole "buck the trends and fall off next year". I just don't see how Tejada and Roberts are going to see much of a decline if at all. I took an informal look around at several players and I see players, of their ability, generally performing consistently until at least 35/36.

Curiosity (sp?) question: from what timeframes are the stats that generally predict the rate of decline for a player taken? I ask b/c it is my hypothesis that today's players generally take better care of themselves than they did in years past (i.e. training all year instead of working jobs) and will thus be able to maintain their level of performance for a longer period of time.

[tywright]

What constitutes rebuilding?

I'm all in favor of trading Tejada, Hernandez, Payton, Trachsel, the bullpen, and DCab...but is that really rebuilding? Rebuilding would be taking every one of your valuable parts above a certain age and trading them. I'm definitely not for that!