Willie Mays

[ShaneDawg85]

Where do the folks on this board rank Mays all time versus other position players?

Hands down top 10, and I'd probably say top 5. It's almost impossible for me to make a list, because there's so much you can base it upon. The names I'm inclined to have in my top 5 are, obviously Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Cobb, and then the fifth spot I'm inclined to say Ted Williams, but I could go any direction with it.

As far as Mays vs. Aaron, I would say that in their respective primes Mays is just a little better, specifically when you factor in defense. I will say that Aaron was the more productive after the age of 34, so he had a bit more blessing of longevity than Mays. But mainly due to defense, I'd take Mays of Aaron. But really, you couldn't go wrong with either of them.

How fitting that baseball reference lists Mays as Aaron's most similar batter.

[mweb]

Let's not derail this acting like using greenies was some big crime or anything like roids, or that there is some arbitrary purity threshold. Personally, I wish they'd let them use them again... especially in August and September...

If there's anything Mays wasn't great at, I'd like to know what it was...

I'm not sure making a post that is inviting a debate is a good way not to derail a thread, but ok. I'll just say that I don't think either are big crimes and both help players a lot. BTW, the thread has already been derailed.

[mweb]

Hands down top 10, and I'd probably say top 5. It's almost impossible for me to make a list, because there's so much you can base it upon. The names I'm inclined to have in my top 5 are, obviously Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Cobb, and then the fifth spot I'm inclined to say Ted Williams, but I could go any direction with it.

As far as Mays vs. Aaron, I would say that in their respective primes Mays is just a little better, specifically when you factor in defense. I will say that Aaron was the more productive after the age of 34, so he had a bit more blessing of longevity than Mays. But mainly due to defense, I'd take Mays of Aaron. But really, you couldn't go wrong with either of them.

How fitting that baseball reference lists Mays as Aaron's most similar batter.

Are you exluding Bonds because of PED's or because you don't think he's top 5 caliber?

[cmcgarvey]

The Say Hey Kid was on The Daily Show earlier this week.

He was awesome and way funny.

[ShaneDawg85]

Are you exluding Bonds because of PED's or because you don't think he's top 5 caliber?

No I do think he's top 5 caliber, I just in the moment went with Williams. Like I said, I could go a lot of different ways with it. PED's or not, Bonds is one of the all-time greats.

[TyCobb]

Let's not derail this acting like using greenies was some big crime or anything like roids, or that there is some arbitrary purity threshold. Personally, I wish they'd let them use them again... especially in August and September...

If there's anything Mays wasn't great at, I'd like to know what it was...

Drinking a ton of red bull/coffee before a game is probably the same as taking the greenies back in the day.

..i just missed Ted and Joe D and Musial...BUT I saw Mantle, Aaron, FRobby, Banks, Clemente,AND Bonds, Pujols and all the rest.

No one. No one was better than Willie. No one.(of the people I saw)

Was Ruth better? Yes. Probably.Ted told me he was the only player better than Willie. He told me that personally. He said he never saw Cobb, and that Cobb was the greatest he had ever NOT seen. But he was firm. Ruth was the best, and Willie was a close second.

Thats all I needed to hear.

BTW. Ted said Joe Di was a better ballplayer than he was..but that he(Ted) was a better hitter. I believe that completely.

Joe D seems to be forgotten by today's public. A lot of people forget how ridiculous Yankee Stadium was setup for a RH hitter. If Joe D played for the Red Sox and Ted Williams played for the Yankees, then I think we would have a lot of different single season records (all of them held by these two guys).

In 1937 Joe D had 46 hrs/167 RBIs. That number would have been over 60 hrs if he played his home games in Fenway.

[mweb]

No I do think he's top 5 caliber, I just in the moment went with Williams. Like I said, I could go a lot of different ways with it. PED's or not, Bonds is one of the all-time greats.

Well if there's no penalty for PED's, I don't see an argument for him being out of the top 5.

[waroriole]

Drinking a ton of red bull/coffee before a game is probably the same as taking the greenies back in the day.

Joe D seems to be forgotten by today's public. A lot of people forget how ridiculous Yankee Stadium was setup for a RH hitter. If Joe D played for the Red Sox and Ted Williams played for the Yankees, then I think we would have a lot of different single season records (all of them held by these two guys).

In 1937 Joe D had 46 hrs/167 RBIs. That number would have been over 60 hrs if he played his home games in Fenway.

I think Joe D gets left out for two reasons.

1. When discussing great players, it is often done by position. There are just too many great OF for him to get a lot of attention in that discussion. Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Bonds, Williams, Mantle, Aaron etc.

2. His career just wasn't as long as most and his counting numbers are not as high. No question he's an all time great, but the longevity isn't there like it was for most players.

[TyCobb]

I think Joe D gets left out for two reasons.

1. When discussing great players, it is often done by position. There are just too many great OF for him to get a lot of attention in that discussion. Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Bonds, Williams, Mantle, Aaron etc.

2. His career just wasn't as long as most and his counting numbers are not as high. No question he's an all time great, but the longevity isn't there like it was for most players.

It really is a shame because the players that play against him always consider him the best.

Sorta like how a lot of players thought Koufax was the best.

I look at a lot of what the players of the day had to say about Joe D.

"There was never a day when I was as good as Joe DiMaggio at his best. Joe was the best, the very best I ever saw." - Stan Musial

"Ted Williams was the greatest hitter I ever saw, but (Joe) DiMaggio was the greatest all around player." - Bob Feller

"(Joe) DiMaggio was the greatest all-around player I ever saw. His career cannot be summed up in numbers and awards. It might sound corny, but he had a profound and lasting impact on the country." - Ted Williams

[weams]

Imagine Willie Mays as a 27 year old free agent.

Wow.

See, it is the "Premium" defensive position that make him so swell. Just like it did Cal. There have been many "Premium" hitters in history, to have the longevity and the "Premium" position with "Premium" skills...Wow.

Mantle was that too...but there was this drainage hole...

[GoldGlove21]

Before his death in 1961, Ty declared, "Mays is the only man in baseball, I'd pay to see play." (Baltimore Afro-American, Saturday, August 20, 1966, pp. 18, column 5. "New Wave of Expletives greet Mays' homer feat, by Sam Lacy)

That is a huge quote from Cobb, more so when you consider that Cobb was a strong rumored racist.

[GoldGlove21]

Imagine Willie Mays as a 27 year old free agent.

Wow.

See, it is the "Premium" defensive position that make him so swell. Just like it did Cal. There have been many "Premium" hitters in history, to have the longevity and the "Premium" position with "Premium" skills...Wow.

Mantle was that too...but there was this drainage hole...

I think in terms of an entire package, Ken Griffey Jr. was a lot closer to Willie Mays than Barry Bonds was. Bonds was never considered a great defender.

[mweb]

I don't think DiMaggio and Koufax are really underrated today. They're generally considered among the best ever at their position.

Regarding quotes, I'm guessing one could find quotes like those in support of a lot of the elite players throughout history. If we're going to go by quotes by peers, Oscar Charleston may be the best ever. And maybe he is, hard to say.

[mweb]

I think in terms of an entire package, Ken Griffey Jr. was a lot closer to Willie Mays than Barry Bonds was. Bonds was never considered a great defender.

Umm, what? He has 8 gold gloves while playing a position that is often left out while handing out that award. He was a great defensive player before he got huge.

[MikeAD]

If Mays isn't the best, you certainly can make an argument for him being the best. Bonds was great, as was (of course Ruth and the rest of the usual top 5-10) but Mays encompassed all you wanted in a fielder, hitter, baserunner, player.

Its always tough to pick a "best" due to era of play, and all of the circumstances to consider, but I won't argue long with anyone who has Mays in their top 2 or 3 of all time.