The Great Tillman Debate

[OrioleMagic]

What a great discussion... completely ruined by a guy who detracts from this site a whole lot more than he adds to it.

[Sports Guy]

Hernandez has pitched pretty well all spring, and if the reports of the command of off speed pitches improving are correct, then I have no problems starting the year with him as the 5th starter, especially since Tillman's command remains suspect.

Tillman probably did come into the spring as the favorite, but unlike you, I believed there was a true competition for the 5th slot.

I disagree with those that say Tillman has nothing left to prove at AAA. The same things were said about Hayden Penn. Tillman is still young and still has immense potential, but he still can work on the command of all his pitches.

Tony, I have said from the beginning that I am very excited about DH learning a sinker. That is huge for me.

And if his slider is back to where it was, great...i am happy about that and agree that he could be a starter.

I have also said that I believe DH could be a league average 4/5 starter...5ish ERA, 150ish IP...I believe he could do that even without the sinker and with an inconsistent slider.

But I also think he would be a starter that you would want to replace.

I am glad he is showing progress and pitching well but Tillman has always been the better pitcher and I don't think a few weeks, in ST, should change that.

[Moose Milligan]

I am having a discussion...It is more thaty I am not bowing down to the Orioles and taking their word for everything...That's always the problem around here...if you agree with the Orioles, then everyone is fine...if you don't, people cry.

And I really enjoy hearing ACTUAL INSIGHT from Ooriole28...But insight and crying because someone thinks he is a BP pitcher are 2 different things.

The other day, DH's father sent me a PM and gave me some actual insight and it was some stuff that was really nice to hear. I appreciated him telling me and told him that i am rooting for his son.

His FATHER is a class act and discusses things about his son in a very reasonable way, especially when you consider that this is his son. Ooriole28 doesn't do that.

There is a difference.

As Scorpio correctly stated above, its not like they're sending Tillman down and giving the spot to Russ Ortiz or Adam Eaton. It's someone with upside and thats all that should really matter.

[Hank Scorpio]

Absolutely. If Rick Kranitz and Dave Trembley feel Hernandez is going to have more success right now than Tillman then he should be in the rotation. Besides, the way Guthrie has pitched, they both may be in the rotation by May.

I think this would be best for the team, frankly.

I get that they have to give Guthrie the chance to put it together, but his command hasn't been there at all for a good year now.

[Sports Guy]

As Scorpio correctly stated above, its not like they're sending Tillman down and giving the spot to Russ Ortiz or Adam Eaton. It's someone with upside and thats all that should really matter.

Yea, that's the good part about this...I don't disagree with that one bit.

[Hank Scorpio]

Yea, that's the good part about this...I don't disagree with that one bit.

Guthrie's the new Eaton.

[Moose Milligan]

What a great discussion... completely ruined by a guy who detracts from this site a whole lot more than he adds to it.

I wouldn't go that far. SG adds a lot.

And his fits of rage only endear him to me even more.

[SilentJames]

It basically says that Tillman was in the rotation but DH's start the other day may have changed that.

That tells me that one start changed their mind.

You and I both know what is closer to reality is that Hernandez and Tillman have been similar pitchers since they each got the call. They were similar all Spring, suddenly Hernandez pulls away,

The way some people are characterizing this issue makes it appear that Tillman has been throwing no-hitters and may get supplanted because of one good DH start, and we know that is BS.

No one is making a decision based on one start.

[Moose Milligan]

Guthrie's the new Eaton.

Which is sad. Hopefully he can turn it around.

[MurphDogg]

I disagree with those that say Tillman has nothing left to prove at AAA. The same things were said about Hayden Penn. Tillman is still young and still has immense potential, but he still can work on the command of all his pitches.

I agree with that. I think too many people look at numbers and see that Tillman was dominant at AAA and take that means he has nothing to prove. There is a difference in needing to prove that you can get AAA hitters out, and proving that you succeed in getting Major League hitters out. There are plenty of pitchers who have tons of success in AAA that struggle in the majors, and if the Orioles think Tillman may need to improve his command and his approach in AAA to prove that he can succeed in the Majors, that is reasonable. Not everybody agrees with it but it is not an unreasonable position.

[Hank Scorpio]

Which is sad. Hopefully he can turn it around.

Yeah, I just sorta meant figuratively. Guthrie's got much better stuff than Eaton ever had.

I think part of his problem is that the AL East has seen him a lot the past three years and his deteriorating fastball command has just compounded that.

[Moose Milligan]

I agree with that. I think too many people look at numbers and see that Tillman was dominant at AAA and take that means he has nothing to prove. There is a difference in needing to prove that you can get AAA hitters out, and proving that you succeed in getting Major League hitters out. There are plenty of pitchers who have tons of success in AAA that struggle in the majors, and if the Orioles think Tillman may need to improve his command and his approach in AAA to prove that he can succeed in the Majors, that is reasonable. Not everybody agrees with it but it is not an unreasonable position.

Great post.

[OrioleMagic]

I wouldn't go that far. SG adds a lot.

And his fits of rage only endear him to me even more.

I can see your point, I have seen some SG comments that add value to the discussion, but when one of 8,000 other OH posters (me in this case) pops into a thread started by Frobby that appears to be very interesting... and he starts acting like he knows better than anyone else including the baseball professionals that are paid to make the decisions... and then he insults those with differing opinions, and those of us that have been around for a few years see this recurring trend again and again, it gets old.

If SG were as bright a baseball mind as he thinks he is, Kotchman would be a 3-time All-star instead of being traded more than once and Brandon Wood would have already been the Rookie of the Year.

At some point, ya'd think he would wonder why the Orioles haven't hired him yet and realize that maybe he really isn't all he cracks himself up to be.

[Old#5fan]

I think Tillman is going to be the better pitcher, and I'm a guy who is still high on Hernandez. I'd prefer to see Tillman in the rotation over him, as I don't think Tillman really has much to work on that would make AAA of any benefit to him, whereas Hernandez still does.

However, what I'd really like to see, is Guthrie moved as soon as possible and both of these guys in the rotation.

I think that is what is very likely to happen.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I agree with that. I think too many people look at numbers and see that Tillman was dominant at AAA and take that means he has nothing to prove. There is a difference in needing to prove that you can get AAA hitters out, and proving that you succeed in getting Major League hitters out. There are plenty of pitchers who have tons of success in AAA that struggle in the majors, and if the Orioles think Tillman may need to improve his command and his approach in AAA to prove that he can succeed in the Majors, that is reasonable. Not everybody agrees with it but it is not an unreasonable position.

The numbers in AAA show that he knows how to get AAA hitters out. The numbers in Baltimore show us that he may not yet know how to get major-league hitters out. So the question becomes whether the best place for him to learn how to get major-league hitters out is in the majors or in AAA.

That's definitely for the coaches to decide, since they have far more information about it than any of us. But until the decision is made I think it's fine to debate it.