Anybody Else Wonder Why DT Didn't Pinch Run For Atkins?

[mark_beckens]

I started playing baseball in 1963 competitively and have been watching major league baseball since attending my first game in 1963. Obviously, you don't know much about the game or you wouldn't ask such questions. Seeing through you is like looking through paper mache. You aren't fooling anyone so just stop with the inane interrogation. If you would act more nicely I would gladly share with you anything I know.

My resume. Played college ball at Ottawa University in KS for 2 years, made all freshman team and all conference. Soph. season made all conference 1st team. Transferred to Mansfield, PA, played fall ball before I had a car accident that ended my college career. Played and coached semi-pro ball in Baltimore. SO you can be one of those, I know more then you cause I'm older then everyone else, even though I never really played the game above Little League guys. But anyone who "REALLY" played the game, knows your a poser! and an angry one at that.

[Stotle]

Normally I wouldn't consider bunting Roberts there, but his timing has clearly been off in ST so I agree that it may have been the right move last night. I can't really fault DT for not doing it though. Having faith there in a vet in the 1st game isn't a bad thing. Bunting wouldn't have been bad either.

Yeah. I don't think Trembley did anything WRONG. I do think there was an opportunity to get creative, and Robets 4.1-4.2 to first from the left side has me less concerned with any double-play threat (Longoria is taking .5 secs to give a quick look).

[Stotle]

I saw your post but I just don't agree. Longoria is a GG caliber 3B and Roberts, despite having good speed, has always been pretty easy to double up for some reason. He just doesn't get out of the box very quickly. I really don't think the DP would have been a longshot at all.

Fair enough. And full disclosure I had no home-to-first time on Roberts that night anyway. Could be slower than I had him before. Also agree no reason to bunt if normal, full speed Roberts is at bat, rather than missed-half-ST Roberts.

[LookitsPuck]

You're wrong. That was an easy DP if Longoria fields it cleanly. Sending Atkins was the right play for the exact reason Tony outlined. You'd rather make the 3B/1B execute the throw, the catcher catch it and tag the runner with that goofy glove than risk the DP. It was the right play, but the wrong result.

For someone who swears they know baseball really well, you're just off base on this one. This wasn't a hard decision at all. Just because things don't work out doesn't mean there was a mistake made.

If it was 2B and 3B with no outs in that situation, you don't run on balls to 1st/3rd, but 1B and 3B you definitely do.

BTW, if you want to lament something other than Gonzalez pitching poorly, I'd be talking about the absolute rocket that Tejada hit with the bases loaded that was right at Crawford. That ball was hit so hard that five feet to either direction and it would have gone to the wall.

EDIT: I see that DT said the exact same thing later and it is now in this thread.

I know you've played ball, so have I. And I disagree with you 100%.

You need to analyze the situation. Runners on 1st and 3rd, Atkins being on 3rd and a relatively slow base runner, with Izturis on 1st who has plus speed, and Roberts at the plate with plus speed.

3rd base and 1st base are drawn in looking to cut the run off at home. Middle infield is playing at double play depth to concede the run to turn to and keep it a tie game.

That ball is hit relatively quickly right at Longoria who is about even with Atkins, and Atkins is running. If Longoria fields it cleanly, Atkins is out by a mile. Longoria bobbled it and Atkins still didn't have a chance. Atkins as a SLOW runner should have NOT been running on a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who is already playing drawn in at that situation.

For all intents and purposes, if Atkins stays and tempts Longoria, Izturis most likely makes it a rushed play at 2B or Roberts is out at 1st.

I'm sorry, in that situation being only up by one, you just do not push that issue with Atkins as the runner.

[ledzepp8]

my resume. Played college ball at ottawa university in ks for 2 years, made all freshman team and all conference. Soph. Season made all conference 1st team. Transferred to mansfield, pa, played fall ball before i had a car accident that ended my college career. Played and coached semi-pro ball in baltimore. So you can be one of those, i know more then you cause i'm older then everyone else, even though i never really played the game above little league guys. But anyone who "really" played the game, knows your a poser! And an angry one at that.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!

[RShack]

Thanks for explaining this. Essentially, what you're saying is that Atkins runs on contact as a sacrificial lamb, to prevent a double play, not because there's an expectation that he'll make it home. I retract my original criticism of the baserunning on this play.

The sacrificial lamb part is just the worse case scenario. Depending on exactly how the ball is hit, and whether the D performs every step perfectly, the run can score... and often does. But if the runner waits to judge how the ball is hit, that makes it harder to score. So, it's more like "maybe you score or maybe you don't, but even if you don't, you've prevented the DP... unless they take the DP, in which case you at least got a run out of it..." Meanwhile, staying put accomplishes nothing, the runner is just standing there watching the inning slip away...

[RShack]

I know you've played ball, so have I. And I disagree with you 100%.

You need to analyze the situation. Runners on 1st and 3rd, Atkins being on 3rd and a relatively slow base runner, with Izturis on 1st who has plus speed, and Roberts at the plate with plus speed.

3rd base and 1st base are drawn in looking to cut the run off at home. Middle infield is playing at double play depth to concede the run to turn to and keep it a tie game.

That ball is hit relatively quickly right at Longoria who is about even with Atkins, and Atkins is running. If Longoria fields it cleanly, Atkins is out by a mile. Longoria bobbled it and Atkins still didn't have a chance. Atkins as a SLOW runner should have NOT been running on a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman who is already playing drawn in at that situation.

For all intents and purposes, if Atkins stays and tempts Longoria, Izturis most likely makes it a rushed play at 2B or Roberts is out at 1st.

I'm sorry, in that situation being only up by one, you just do not push that issue with Atkins as the runner.

Too much thinking. The whole reason you have things like "go on contact" is because there's not time to have a committee meeting about it. By the time the runner does an analysis of the situation, where the ball is hit, how hard it's hit, where the 3B is relative to where he is, how quickly the batter got out of the box, etc., etc., the whole play is over. He's going on contact for the reasons that have already been stated in earlier posts, which are based in part on the fact that there's not time to think about all this stuff in mid-play. He's gotta either go or not go instantly, without a lot of noodling about it...

[LookitsPuck]

Too much thinking. The whole reason you have things like "go on contact" is because there's not time to have a committee meeting about it. By the time the runner does an analysis of the situation, where the ball is hit, how hard it's hit, where the 3B is relative to where he is, how quickly the batter got out of the box, etc., etc., the whole play is over. He's going on contact for the reasons that have already been stated in earlier posts, which are based in part on the fact that there's not time to think about all this stuff in mid-play. He's gotta either go or not go instantly, without a lot of noodling about it...

And I disagree with it. If I'm Juan Samuel, I'm reiterating to Atkins that unless the ball is hit to Longoria's left (on a ground ball to the left side of the infield) or Pena's right...you remain put.

I think it was a poor decision on Atkins part. He's not a fast runner, and that ball was hit right to Longoria. It wasn't a slow hit in which Longoria had to run in and field cleanly and have a play at the plate.

I don't think this is a case of hindsight is 50/50. I think this is a case of having a plan prior to the ball leaving the bat. As a previous base runner with plus speed, that's exactly my plan at that point. You can clearly see the positioning of Longoria before the play even occurred.

My question to you, would Prince Fielder have made the same play? How about David Ortiz?

I've seen similar situations and the runner does not go, because they know they'll be a cooked goose. The issue is that Atkins went on contact. You can go on contact, or you can get an idea of where the ball is going before going on contact...which you should do anyway in the event that the ball is scorched at the 3rd baseman.

[Stotle]

Too much thinking. The whole reason you have things like "go on contact" is because there's not time to have a committee meeting about it. By the time the runner does an analysis of the situation, where the ball is hit, how hard it's hit, where the 3B is relative to where he is, how quickly the batter got out of the box, etc., etc., the whole play is over. He's going on contact for the reasons that have already been stated in earlier posts, which are based in part on the fact that there's not time to think about all this stuff in mid-play. He's gotta either go or not go instantly, without a lot of noodling about it...

"Too much thinking" should never be a reason for a manager not to make a call. He should be thinking about all of these possibilities as the inning progresses. It isn't a split-second decision, it's an ongoing monitoring of the game. It's the coaching staffs job to tell the players what to do so that the players don't have to make these decisions.

To be clear, as I said above, I'm not slamming Trembley for how BAL handled the situation at all.

[RShack]

"Too much thinking" should never be a reason for a manager not to make a call. He should be thinking about all of these possibilities as the inning progresses. It isn't a split-second decision, it's an ongoing monitoring of the game. It's the coaching staffs job to tell the players what to do so that the players don't have to make these decisions.

To be clear, as I said above, I'm not slamming Trembley for how BAL handled the situation at all.

OK. But I wasn't talking about DT's decision. I was talking about the idea of mid-play decision-making based on exactly how hard the ball was hit, exactly where the 3B-man was standing, how the 3B-man's position compares to where the ball went and to the runner's position, etc. My point was that, for a play like this, the player can't be pausing to analyze lots of stuff, he has to either go or not-go instantaneously.

[LookitsPuck]

OK. But I wasn't talking about DT's decision. I was talking about the idea of mid-play decision-making based on exactly how hard the ball was hit, exactly where the 3B-man was standing, how the 3B-man's position compares to where the ball went and to the runner's position, etc. My point was that, for a play like this, the player can't be pausing to analyze lots of stuff, he has to either go or not-go instantaneously.

Yes, but there are a ton of factors that need to be taken into account before the ball even hits the bat (and after the bat), which makes this play a huge blunder in my head.

[El Gordo]

Yes, but there are a ton of factors that need to be taken into account before the ball even hits the bat (and after the bat), which makes this play a huge blunder in my head.

I don't know about what the official baseball textbook says, in fact I didn't know there was one. But it seems to me that there are too many variables to make it a cut and dry, always run on contact if it's 1B and 3B with no outs, thing. Suppose it's a chop. There's no chance for a DP but the runner on 3B is still likely thrown out. Suppose it's a soft line drive, the guy running on contact runs into a DP that otherwise wouldn't happen. If it's a swinging bunt, again no DP, but if the pitcher fields it, running on contact gets you out. On the play tonight, if Longeria fields it cleanly and the runner wasn't going on contact, he still has the option of breaking for the plate and getting in a run down to avoid the DP. So I don't see why it should be axiomatic that the runner always goes on contact.

[Old#5fan]

My resume. Played college ball at Ottawa University in KS for 2 years, made all freshman team and all conference. Soph. season made all conference 1st team. Transferred to Mansfield, PA, played fall ball before I had a car accident that ended my college career. Played and coached semi-pro ball in Baltimore. SO you can be one of those, I know more then you cause I'm older then everyone else, even though I never really played the game above Little League guys. But anyone who "REALLY" played the game, knows your a poser! and an angry one at that.

So what? You probably never even played with a wooden bat. There is a lot some older baseball fans could teach you. In fact, that is probably how you learned to play so well to begin with. You probably had a father or relative instruct you. It doesn't mean you know more than me or anyone else. My son also played College basketball and was All-County baseball and offered baseball scholarships but wanted to play BB instead. It doesn't mean he knows more than I do. I was the one who got him started.

[mark_beckens]

So what? You probably never even played with a wooden bat. There is a lot some older baseball fans could teach you. In fact, that is probably how you learned to play so well to begin with. You probably had a father or relative instruct you. It doesn't mean you know more than me or anyone else. My son also played College basketball and was All-County baseball and offered baseball scholarships but wanted to play BB instead. It doesn't mean he knows more than I do. I was the one who got him started.

I've forgotten more about how to play the game and how the game is suppose to be played, then you know. Not sure what your trying to prove with the older person crap. Of course I had coaches growing up who taught me how to play the game. It's where I learned how to play the game, coach the game. Not sitting on my ass watching TV, thinking I knew it all. And I played with a wooden bat for 2 years in the Empire State games. What does that have to do with anything?

[Old#5fan]

I've forgotten more about how to play the game and how the game is suppose to be played, then you know. Not sure what your trying to prove with the older person crap. Of course I had coaches growing up who taught me how to play the game. It's where I learned how to play the game, coach the game. Not sitting on my ass watching TV, thinking I knew it all. And I played with a wooden bat for 2 years in the Empire State games. What does that have to do with anything?

Nothing but you have no right to belittle me son. I played baseball as a kid often 10-12 hours a day all summer long. I played in several different youth little leagues, Ruritan Leagues (no doubt you never heard of those) Senior leagues, through HS. I pitched, played first base and OF. As a pure lefty (hitting and throwing) those were my only options.

I didn't play in college as I worked full time to pay my way through school. So you have no clue how much baseball knowledge I have or don't have. I guarantee you I have FAR more Baseball game, player and observation experience than you because I have been religiously following the game since 1963. So spare me your know-it-all crap. Once you have lived and gained some life experience you will realize you don't know half what you think you know. For example I have watched every Oriole WS game on tv when they happened, not years later in highlight films. There is something you probably would wish to have experienced. I am not gloating over this, just telling you I have been there and done it! I am not belittling you so you have zero cause to be attempting to do so to me.