Actions Speak Louder than Words

[NewMarketSean]

Some other things I would have liked to have seen talked about...

1. Why is Crowley still hitting coach?

2. Does AM hold the MLB coaches responsible for the core's poor play this year?

[Mackus]

Just wanted to thank Tony for his efforts. It can't be fun to document 14 years of failure. I've only had a chance to skim it so far. One thing surprised me - that the O's could have gotten Hudson as well as Marcus Giles for BRob. I don't remember Hudson's name being discussed before. I just recall Giles and LaRoche.

I remember Hudson for Tejada being rumored, but never for Roberts. Very interesting.

I also remember the 2005 Marlins trade very clearly being for Burnett, not Beckett. That was what all the reports at the time were. I don't believe Tony's sources that Beckett and Lowell was the rumored trade. Beckett and Lowell went the next offseason for Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez. Ramirez was the #10 overall prospect according to BA.

Hayden Penn was #94, Ponson in the midst of a 6.21 ERA season, and Bigbie was OPS-ing under .700 in July of 2005 just before being traded for Eric Byrnes.

No way was Beckett involved in that deal. Burnett I would believe, since he was a pending FA, but zero chance we were ever able to get Josh Beckett for Bigbie and Penn at the 2005 deadline. Lowell and Ponson's contracts would have canceled each other out, so there wasn't even a salary dump benefit to that one.

[Frobby]

The best description of why we are where we are was in the last section.

Quote:

The minor league system has one impact prospect in the upper level of the system in Zach Britton, and the young cavalry of Brian Matusz, Chris Tillman, and Jake Arrieta has a combined for a 7-16 record with a 5.42 ERA (through 7/20). The "can't miss" Matt Wieters is currently on the disabled list but has put up an anemic .672 OPS this season. In other words, the core that MacPhail was counting on has mainly arrived, and the Orioles are the worst team in baseball.

We suck this year and have major doubts about the future because the young promising core that MacPhail went with has sucked this year. They are still young and have time to bounce back, but they've been terrible as a group. That's our future. If they don't play well, we're screwed. MacPhail will get the blame for this group not performing if they end up falling short, but anyone here who is saying they also thought this young core would flop heading into this season is speaking completely out of hindsight and not being honest.

There is no amount of smart international signings, good drafting, and big free agency spending that would be able to overcome the complete implosion of this young core of 8-12 players. We just don't have that type of margin for error. There is some margin, but its not that much. We really have to hope that these guys can provide us with what we need. The other things that need to improve won't matter unless we get these guys straightened out (not that we shouldn't try to improve those things anyways).

You are 100% correct about this. Fortunately, I think it is way too early to give up on that "core" group. I'd be happier if they were doing better, but with young players things can turn around very quickly.

[SilentJames]

No, better international and amateur signings/scouting would make the organization deeper so the failings of our core wouldn't be as tragic. We pinned our hopes on the core because they were the only players in the system that were MLB quality. Aside from Britton, who else in the minors is close or good enough to win a position on this team in the next year or two?

The core struggling is definitely the worst thing about 2010, and if they did well we probably wouldn't have read this article because it wouldn't have been written. But as far as I am concerned, we are where we are for a reason -- largely because of what Tony wrote .

You're right to a point, but the Caribbean is not some magical fairyland of top-flight baseball players. We are talking near a DOZEN players BUSTING at the same time. This would be the equivalent of the Rays having Longoria, Garza, Pena, Upton, Zobrist, Iwamura, Price all busting.

I mean no system is THAT deep.

[TonySoprano]

Very sorry for the delay as we had major formatting issues when putting it on the site:

http://www.orioleshangout.com/ttakeArticle.asp?ID=2696&page=ttake

I need to spread the rep around, but I will find a way to tip your rep jar on this.

As others noted, there weren't any surprises to me. For example, B&F operating without a budget I had read years ago. Angelos and cronyism (e.g. Flanagan, Perlozzo) is another one. However, that's me; I have a way to remember those events. It's likely that they are news to many.

It was a very well written and organized piece, and a page-turner, remarkable given it's length. The approach was straightforward, and honest, told in a matter-of-fact manner. One does not get the sense of any "axes to grind," nor were there.

[TiredofLosing20]

MacPhail needs to realize he isn't going to make the Orioles successful by sticking to his philosophy and needs to work with ownership to get this team to win games.

If he's not willing to do this, then he needs to resign and let Angelos choose somebody that will.

So maybe he can get Syd Thrift back. Unbelievable that you would actually be calling for Angelos to hire a stool pigeon. You just don't get it. We have been operating under the Angelos Way for the past 15 years. It left our farm system, our international presence, and our ML team in complete disarray. But here you are clearly calling for the return of Syd Thrift. This statement here may be the absolutely worst possible thing you have ever spouted on this website.

[ChaosLex]

My biggest concern/disappointment involves the managerial search. His excuse that the team has been playing better the last few weeks gives him reason not to have to rush just doesn't sit well with me.

Agreed with this. Not sure what team Fearless Leader is watching, but it's not the O's.

[SilentJames]

Agreed with this. Not sure what team Fearless Leader is watching, but it's not the O's.

In all fairness wasn't the interview given before the Toronto series?

[Mackus]

No, better international and amateur signings/scouting would make the organization deeper so the failings of our core wouldn't be as tragic. We pinned our hopes on the core because they were the only players in the system that were MLB quality. Aside from Britton, who else in the minors is close or good enough to win a position on this team in the next year or two?

The core struggling is definitely the worst thing about 2010, and if they did well we probably wouldn't have read this article because it wouldn't have been written. But as far as I am concerned, we are where we are for a reason -- largely because of what Tony wrote .

Better international signings wouldn't come into play for 4-5 years.

If we had a long-established tradition of being good internationally we'd be able to hide some of that. But I don't think it'd be very reasonable to expect us to have a pipeline of talent pouring in to the MLB level after just 2 or 3 years of being in the DR and elsewhere. We sign these kids when they are 16. They'll take 5-6 years to reach the majors.

I think the Orioles organization is in shambles because of Angelos' poor leadership. That's the cause of our longterm problems and our awful last 10+ years. I think MacPhail's plan is in shambles because of the abysmal performance of the core this season. When we were all expecting at least a small step forward, they took a giant step backwards. That's what makes the next few years look so bleak right now.

[JohnD]

I also remember the 2005 Marlins trade very clearly being for Burnett, not Beckett. That was what all the reports at the time were. I don't believe Tony's sources that Beckett and Lowell was the rumored trade.

Go back and look. It was definitely Beckett. And you can trust Tony's source on that, if you don't want to trust my memory.

[NewMarketSean]

You're right to a point, but the Caribbean is not some magical fairyland of top-flight baseball players. We are talking near a DOZEN players BUSTING at the same time. This would be the equivalent of the Rays having Longoria, Garza, Pena, Upton, Zobrist, Iwamura, Price all busting.

I mean no system is THAT deep.

Actually, the Rays were/are.

The Rays busted with much of their core before the players you mentioned came up and turned the Rays into a WS team: remember Dukes, Brazelton, Baldelli, Young, Cantu, etc...

Because they were so deep, they were able to overcome those players faltering. We don't have that second wave.

[TonySoprano]

Go back and look. It was definitely Beckett. And you can trust Tony's source on that, if you don't want to trust my memory.

It was AJ Burnett, do a simple google search if you don't want to trust me

for example

Orioles eye Fla.'s Burnett

0 Comments | Capital, Jun 28, 2005 | by MIKE BERARDINO South Florida Sun-Sentinel

MIAMI, Fla. - A.J. Burnett's time in South Florida isn't up yet, but there were indications yesterday the Flordia Marlins have contemplated accelerating that timeline in recent days.

According to a Baltimore Orioles source, the Marlins approached the team last week with a proposal that would have sent the hard- throwing right-hander and outfielder Juan Encarnacion, both potential free agents this winter, to Baltimore.

In exchange, the Marlins would have received reliever Jorge Julio, outfielder Larry Bigbie and one of two young right-handers, Daniel Cabrera or Hayden Penn. The deal would have saved the Marlins about $3 million this season and kept them from losing two key cogs for draft picks.

[ChaosLex]

In all fairness wasn't the interview given before the Toronto series?

We're we 14-20 then though? Also, didn't we have two 9th inning comebacks during the Rangers series?

Don't get me wrong, a win's a win. Still, you have to factor luck into the equation as well.

[baltfan]

It was AJ Burnett, do a simple google search if you don't want to trust me

for example

This is my memory as well. There was the whole angle at the time that Burnett had the wife from Baltimore and would be more likely to sign an extension because of it.

As a matter of fact, I believe the trade was so close that there was one night when the Orioles sat the players believed to be involved in the trade in anticipation of it occurring.

[DrungoHazewood]

I appreciate the effort, Tony. Nothing earth-shattering, but a solid overview of the organization.

I think I takeaway is that my suspicions that have been taking hold this year have been pretty well confirmed: The O's #1 problem is at a very low, basic, fundamental level. They don't put the resources where they need to be to build a self-sustaining organization. They don't have nearly enough scouts, they don't have enough empowered front-office types, they don't invest much of anything on non-drafted amateurs.

And they're about as far away from my vision of being one step ahead in emerging markets as any team in baseball. I'm sure there are Japanese or Korean teams that put more resources into scouting Australia or Taiwan or South Africa or Europe or India.

I agree with one of Mackus' posts: what MacPhail can control he's done reasonably well. But until ownership decides to really invest in the foundations of the franchise like Tampa and Toronto (not to mention the obviously more advanced, well-funded, and aggressive Boston and NY) they're doomed.