How do we get Trevor Bauer? (Update: Bauer to Indians)

[Flash- bd]

How is any of that absurd? I'm sorry, but you can't just ignore the majority of someone's career because it doesn't fit into your argument. If you're just going to pretend the first 3 years of his career didn't happen, then there's really no point to this discussion. lol.

You took my line "Absurd to hold this against him" out of context. It was in direct response to this: "He couldn't even make the rotation out of Spring Training despite the fact that all 5 rotation spots were seemingly up for grabs."

As for the idea that we can't just "pretend the first 3 years of his career didn't happen", okay...But we're talking about prospective value here, aren't we? [ie, going forward] For someone trying to ascertain Tillman's prospective value, would they be best served considering his 2012 performance after a complete remake of his windup and mechanics, in which he finally regained those 3-4 MPH on his FB (a huge difference, by the way, all you have to do is imagine how differently we would be talking about Trevor Bauer if his FB were sitting 88-90 instead of 92-94) or should they weigh more heavily the two years prior when his avg FB velocity was 90.2 and 89.3 and even MiL success was hard to come by? Or the year before that when he was a 21 yr old rookie (and the #22 prospect in all of baseball, by the way) who had yet to have his mechanical remake which proved rather important to his control, who had half the changeup he has now which has probably gone from being a mediocre pitch to a plus pitch? (Doing so, IMO, would make about as much sense as valuing Trevor Bauer going forward based on his 6.06 ERA in 4 starts this year...)

Anyways, I know you didn't want to bash Tillman, but the fact is you've either seriously overrated Trevor Bauer or seriously underrated Chris Tillman. Like I said, as to who has more value at the moment I don't think there's really much debate.

[Il BuonO]

I think you are incorrect in your assumption that his stock had dropped and that's why he wasn't on the mid-season top 50 list. He was a top 10 overal prospect going into the season. He put up very good numbers at both AA and AAA. Certainly nothing disappointing to the extent he would drop all the way off of a top 50 list. I agree he wasn't on the list. He also wasn't listed on a list of 10 prospects whose stock had dropped. He aslo wasn't asked about or menitioned in the accompanying chat. The reason he wasn't on the list. Just a guess but he was called up in late June and wasn't sent back down until late July. The list was put out in early July. I think that's the only reason you don't see his name on that list.

Interesting, thanks. I would still hold that he has some work to do to improve his stock even within his own organization. I still believe he'll have success.

[MachadOboutManny]

Rumors of Asdrubal Cabrera for Bauer.

[BobDylanBundy]

Rumors of Asdrubal Cabrera for Bauer.

O's need to jump in and offer Hardy + sweeteners as an alternative.

I don't think they should be actively looking to move Hardy, but he's only 3 years older than Asdrubal at the same salary and plays better defense at a crucial defensive position.

If the O's can get a top upper minors SP prospect for a deal centered around Hardy, they should do it every day of the week.

[CSB Jack]

O's need to jump in and offer Hardy + sweeteners as an alternative.

I don't think they should be actively looking to move Hardy, but he's only 3 years older than Asdrubal at the same salary and plays better defense at a crucial defensive position.

If the O's can get a top upper minors SP prospect for a deal centered around Hardy, they should do it every day of the week.

I don't understand this line of thinking. Don't the Orioles already have more top starting pitching talent (Bundy, Gausman) in the organization than on the left side of the infield (umm... who?)? And that's even aside from wondering why ARI would be looking to move him in the first place if he's all that he's made to be in this discussion.

We don't need another high SP prospect right now, though certainly if we can get one for the right price by all means let's do so. What we do need right now is a competent MLB shortstop, and I really like Hardy's glove even if his bat should be lower in the lineup than #2. Machado/Hardy on the left side is better than Machado/Anyone else currently in the organization.

[BobDylanBundy]

I don't understand this line of thinking. Don't the Orioles already have more top starting pitching talent (Bundy, Gausman) in the organization than on the left side of the infield (umm... who?)? And that's even aside from wondering why ARI would be looking to move him in the first place if he's all that he's made to be in this discussion.

We don't need another high SP prospect right now, though certainly if we can get one for the right price by all means let's do so. What we do need right now is a competent MLB shortstop, and I really like Hardy's glove even if his bat should be lower in the lineup than #2. Machado/Hardy on the left side is better than Machado/Anyone else currently in the organization.

A lot easier to find a good fielding SS/3B than a top SP. You win with starting pitching and if the Orioles are going to cry broke for free agency then they need to stack up on top club-controlled talent. Very rarely are teams going to be willing to deal a Trevor Bauer for a non-elite shortstop. These are the situations that teams like the Orioles need to take advantage of.

[ShoelesJoe]

I don't understand this line of thinking. Don't the Orioles already have more top starting pitching talent (Bundy, Gausman) in the organization than on the left side of the infield (umm... who?)?

Hardy will be a productive player for the Orioles for the next two years, maybe three. Trevor Bauer could be a productive player for the next ten.

[MachadOboutManny]

O's need to jump in and offer Hardy + sweeteners as an alternative.

I don't think they should be actively looking to move Hardy, but he's only 3 years older than Asdrubal at the same salary and plays better defense at a crucial defensive position.

If the O's can get a top upper minors SP prospect for a deal centered around Hardy, they should do it every day of the week.

I am of the belief that Cabrera is a far more attractive piece than Hardy is. Hardy, Schoop, a strong 3rd piece may get it done. I don't think thats necessarily a great option for the Orioles. I would love to have Bauers talent, but I don't think taking on the concerns that are associated with him are worth losing what we'd have to give up.

When Bauer wins the cy young award in 3 years, I may be forced to revisit my considerations. :laughlol:

[BobDylanBundy]

I am of the belief that Cabrera is a far more attractive piece than Hardy is. Hardy, Schoop, a strong 3rd piece may get it done. I don't think thats necessarily a great option for the Orioles. I would love to have Bauers talent, but I don't think taking on the concerns that are associated with him are worth losing what we'd have to give up.

When Bauer wins the cy young award in 3 years, I may be forced to revisit my considerations. :laughlol:

Cabrera is younger and a better contact hitter. But Hardy has more power and plays better defense. SS defense is apparently a priority for Arizona and why they didn't like Stephen Drew and passed on Nick Franklin.

[MachadOboutManny]

Cabrera is younger and a better contact hitter. But Hardy has more power and plays better defense. SS defense is apparently a priority for Arizona and why they didn't like Stephen Drew and passed on Nick Franklin.

I have heard people describe Cabreras defense as elite while describing Hardys as reliable. I know Hardy makes every routine play, but Cabrera makes the spectacular plays. Cabrera has also seen an increase in power production, gets on base more, runs better, and having just turned 27 -- is in entering his prime. I don't think any team would rather have Hardy. I dont think any team would rather have Hardy and Schoop rather than have Asdrubal Cabrera. jmho, BobDylan!

Cheers

[BobDylanBundy]

I have heard people describe Cabreras defense as elite while describing Hardys as reliable. I know Hardy makes every routine play, but Cabrera makes the spectacular plays. Cabrera has also seen an increase in power production, gets on base more, runs better, and having just turned 27 -- is in entering his prime. I don't think any team would rather have Hardy. I dont think any team would rather have Hardy and Schoop rather than have Asdrubal Cabrera. jmho, BobDylan!

Cheers

I'm certainly not trying to imply Hardy has equal trade value to Asdrubal. The Tribe and D'Backs are clearly having trade talks with Bauer/Asdrubal involved and Cleveland apparently as the holdup. I'm saying Hardy is someone close enough in value to Cabrera who the D'Backs could view as an acceptable alternative and deal Bauer to us (for Hardy and others) instead.

[MachadOboutManny]

I'm certainly not trying to imply Hardy has equal trade value to Asdrubal. The Tribe and D'Backs are clearly having trade talks with Bauer/Asdrubal involved and Cleveland apparently as the holdup. I'm saying Hardy is someone close enough in value to Cabrera who the D'Backs could view as an acceptable alternative and deal Bauer to us (for Hardy and others) instead.

You certainly may be right on this one. If we could get Bauer for Hardy and just one other decent piece I would be very excited. I think Asdrubal is a guy the baseball community is really excited about and the perceived drop off may be much larger than the actual drop off when discusing these two SSs.

JJ and Steve Johnson for Bauer would excite me greatly. I don't think Johnson has any trade value though. So maybe Hardy and a prospect in our 5-10 range. If it takes what I think it will, Hardy, Schoop, +, then I would stay away. How about you?

[Can_of_corn]

So I think it is safe to say that those proclaiming it would take Bundy or Gausman to get Bauer were mistaken.

[clapdiddy]

So I think it is safe to say that those proclaiming it would take Bundy or Gausman to get Bauer were mistaken.

What's the poop on what the Indians gave up for Bauer? I heard that the shortstop is promising, but not sure about the others.

[Can_of_corn]

What's the poop on what the Indians gave up for Bauer? I heard that the shortstop is promising, but not sure about the others.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/win-now-edicts-spurring-flurry-of-movement-across-mlb-061318501.html

The new rules begot an old-school trade Tuesday night, a three-team, nine-player, win-now, damn-the-consequences wheeler-dealer of a hot stove treat. The Cincinnati Reds acquired Shin-Soo Choo to play center field, which was amusing seeing as both the Reds' left and right fielders have played more games in center than him. The Arizona Diamondbacks got their long-lusted-after shortstop, a 22-year-old named Didi Gregorius about whom one D-backs official said: "I don't know if he can hit." And the Cleveland Indians, whose bungling of big deals has left them reeling in recent seasons, made out best of all, landing Trevor Bauer, the young right-hander whose personality clashes in the Arizona clubhouse paved the Indians' larcenous path.

The whole of the trade went like this: Cleveland sent Choo and infielder Jason Donald to the Reds for Gregorius and center fielder Drew Stubbs, one of the game's best defensive center fielders whose power-and-speed combination can't make up for his excessive strikeouts. The Indians then flipped Gregorius, along with reliever Tony Sipp and one-time prospect Lars Anderson, to Arizona for Bauer and relievers Bryan Shaw and Matt Albers.

Lars was at one time a big shot Red Sox prospect, ranked as high as #17 by Baseball America. The bloom is long off that rose however.