So how about Brian Roberts today?

[El Gordo]

If Roberts has a .270 slugging percentage he's going to be hard pressed to have an acceptable OBP. I'd say an acceptable OBP from a guy with almost no other skills is maybe .330. Since 2000 there have been 12 regulars with an OBP of at least .330 and a SLG of less than .325. Or about one per year in all of MLB.

And you're saying it's ok if he OPSes .630 or even .600. Which means he'd have to have a .310 or maybe .300 OBP to be even marginally ok on-base wise. Desi Relaford's 2000 is the only player in that timeframe to OBP > .310 while slugging .300 or less.

I don't believe I'm saying that at all. I'm saying he needs to get on base at a 330 + rate to be of value. What his SLG is, is just gravy. For example I have little doubt Flaherty has at least as good, if not better glove than Roberts and would very likely have a higher SLG. But I am not too sure he could get on base as well.

[MurphDogg]

If Mark Reynolds can turn himself into The Magic Toe, who's to say Roberts couldn't become The Mark Belanger of Firstbasemen?

Height, mostly.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't believe I'm saying that at all. I'm saying he needs to get on base at a 330 + rate to be of value. What his SLG is, is just gravy. For example I have little doubt Flaherty has at least as good, if not better glove than Roberts and would very likely have a higher SLG. But I am not too sure he could get on base as well.

And what I'm saying is that it's neigh on impossible to have a very good OBP without some other offensive ability. If he slugs .300 he can't OBP. 350.

[SrMeowMeow]

And what I'm saying is that it's neigh on impossible to have a very good OBP without some other offensive ability. If he slugs .300 he can't OBP. 350.

Isn't the more pressing issue that to have even the high end of the 600-630 OPS we're discussing, Roberts would have to hit at best .300/.330/.300 to satisfy the conditions? That's still unplayably bad for a below-average defender.

[El Gordo]

2003 Roberts had .337 OBP .367 SLG. That would be a big improvement even if his SLG was .350ish, Abreu last year had a .350 OBP with a .342 SLG. If BRob can get on base and steal a few he can be productive for us. He doesn't need to hit HR or that many 2B.

[SrMeowMeow]

2003 Roberts had .337 OBP .367 SLG. That would be a big improvement even if his SLG was .350ish, Abreu last year had a .350 OBP with a .342 SLG. If BRob can get on base and steal a few he can be productive for us. He doesn't need to hit HR or that many 2B.

And 2004 Roberts had a 344/376. And 2005 Roberts had a 387/515! Two things all of those seasons have in common is that they're 100+ points over a 600 OPS and are at least 8 years old.

[El Gordo]

And 2004 Roberts had a 344/376. And 2005 Roberts had a 387/515! Two things all of those seasons have in common is that they're 100+ points over a 600 OPS and are at least 8 years old.

Who is talking about a .600 OPS? The point is his OBP is more important than his SLG. 2010 Juan Pierre had .340 OBP, scored 96 R, stole 68 bases and hit 275. But you wouldn't want that because he only had a .316 SLG and a .657 OPS? Having good AB, getting on base, and stealing them is what Roberts needs to do.

[SrMeowMeow]

Who is talking about a .600 OPS? The point is his OBP is more important than his SLG. 2010 Juan Pierre had .340 OBP, scored 96 R, stole 68 bases and hit 275. But you wouldn't want that because he only had a .316 SLG and a .657 OPS? Having good AB, getting on base, and stealing them is what Roberts needs to do.

Everybody? You, when you started this whole diversion by responding directly to this

If it's June and Roberts is OPSing .600 or .630 with mediocre defense they need to find a different guy to play second..

with this

His OPS isn't that important, his OBP is.

And Juan Pierre scraped out 2.7 WAR in 2010, including those 68 steals and +12 runs on defense. Surely you're not predicting a fraction of either of those numbers for Roberts? Replace that with below-average defense and maybe, what, 20-30 steals and you're looking at a 1 win player. And that's the upside that you, the most stalwart Roberts booster alive right now, are touting. I don't understand. A cool guy with a league average OBP and everything else below average just isn't that valuable! 340 OBP isn't even good!

[El Gordo]

Everybody? You, when you started this whole diversion by responding directly to this

with this

And Juan Pierre scraped out 2.7 WAR in 2010, including those 68 steals and +12 runs on defense. Surely you're not predicting a fraction of either of those numbers for Roberts? Replace that with below-average defense and maybe, what, 20-30 steals and you're looking at a 1 win player. And that's the upside that you, the most stalwart Roberts booster alive right now, are touting. I don't understand. A cool guy with a league average OBP and everything else below average just isn't that valuable! 340 OBP isn't even good!

I would rather have Roberts with a .340 OBP, 25-30 SB and 80 R and a .320 SLG, than say Flaherty with a .310 OBP and a 420 SLG, 6 SB and 45 R. If Roberts puts up a .310 OBP and a .430 SLG we shouldn't play him even though a .740 OPS would be a huge improvement over last year. I don't think Roberts defense will be so bad as to cost us as much as a win. His worst was - 8, and he has put up better numbers since then. My point is it is silly to judge Roberts by OPS in general, his OBP is much more important to his game. We have plenty of guys who can give us a .450 or better SLG(something Roberts is not likely to do again) but I can only think of one player who can guarantee us a .340 OBP.

[SrMeowMeow]

Well, 340/320 is objectively worse than 310/420 in any scenario, so I don't know what to tell you other than that. If you're penciling in Roberts for a like 280/340/320 line with -5 defense, then you should be erasing him from the starting lineup at the same time. You certainly shouldn't be grandstanding about how other people are haters, since I bet that's about the kind of projection you'd get from most "haters" on here. The only thing is, nobody else thinks that kind of production is good or exciting.

[El Gordo]

Well, 340/320 is objectively worse than 310/420 in any scenario, so I don't know what to tell you other than that. If you're penciling in Roberts for a like 280/340/320 line with -5 defense, then you should be erasing him from the starting lineup at the same time. You certainly shouldn't be grandstanding about how other people are haters, since I bet that's about the kind of projection you'd get from most "haters" on here. The only thing is, nobody else thinks that kind of production is good or exciting.

I see. Now I understand why your agenda blinds you from grasping a simple point. If you had any idea of what the colloquial notion of the expression "haters" is then perhaps you might. Here is the urban dictionary def. of "haters" in the sense in which I was using the word, and I think it's quite apt: hater; A person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person.

Hating, the result of being a hater, is not exactly jealousy. The hater doesnt really want to be the person he or she hates, rather the hater wants to knock somelse down a notch." Not in the sense that Nazi's hate certain ethnic groups.

[McNulty]

To summarize: everyone hates BRob and El Gordo. Only one is justified. You decide.

[bobmc]

To summarize: everyone hates BRob and El Gordo. Only one is justified. You decide.

Wow! I can't believe you're cutting Gordo slack....:scratchchinhmm:

[DrungoHazewood]

I see. Now I understand why your agenda blinds you from grasping a simple point. If you had any idea of what the colloquial notion of the expression "haters" is then perhaps you might. Here is the urban dictionary def. of "haters" in the sense in which I was using the word, and I think it's quite apt: hater; A person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person.

Hating, the result of being a hater, is not exactly jealousy. The hater doesnt really want to be the person he or she hates, rather the hater wants to knock somelse down a notch." Not in the sense that Nazi's hate certain ethnic groups.

So... to return to the actual conversation. Yes, one point of OBP is more valuable than one point of slugging. But let's not get crazy about it, and the two are interrelated anyway. If he turns into a defensively-challenged Lance Blankenship he's not long for the team.

[Frobby]

And what I'm saying is that it's neigh on impossible to have a very good OBP without some other offensive ability. If he slugs .300 he can't OBP. 350.

Last year there was no qualifier with an OBP opf .350 or higher who had an SLG below .400. Probably the closest facsimile to what we're talking about with Roberts was Jamie Carroll, .268/.343/.317.