Roberts Must Go

[skiba7]

You said

I said why does everyone assume Roberts & Bedard will not sign extensions with their new teams. Especially in Roberts case I believe he would if he felt wanted.

You said

I said he's only 30 & in his Prime...Not 34-35 on the back end!!!

I read your hole post Skiba ... Now you are back peddling !!!

Roberts had his arm tore off in late 2005. At the time it was considered career threatening. 2006 was a great year considering (but a comeback year never the less). 2007 he was back ... But strength wise was he 100% IMO no. His power numbers might even improve some more!

Ugh, Back peddling? Like I said, make sure you understand the context of what I'm saying before you trash me. We were discussing TRADE VALUE. Obviously when discussing TRADE VALUE, we're going to be assuming he gets traded for the sake of the conversation. Will he be traded? Who knows, but if we're discussing TRADE VALUE, I think it's fair to start disucssing things related to a TRADE.

[skiba7]

I've been a O's fans for my whole life ..Your infatuation in visiting the OH. To talk BS about a player you know nothing about before your team mentioned him in trade rumors. You've likely never seen him play etc ... Would be like me going to the Cubs board & trying to justify the value of Derosa or someone else that else who is considered a All Star on your team.

Where have I ever talked BS about Roberts? I like him, and if he's acquired at a fair price (one of the orginally rumored packages) then I think it would work for both teams. I'm trying to take a reasonable approach at things, and you keep bashing me for doing so. Roberts is a good player. He's not a superstar.

Edit: Oh, and I've seen him play plenty. He's been on my fantasy team the past 2 seasons and I have the MLB package. I'm a baseball fan first, and I don't think it's unreasonable at all for me to discuss the value of another team's players.

[Roll Tide]

Ugh, Back peddling? Like I said, make sure you understand the context of what I'm saying before you trash me. We were discussing TRADE VALUE. Obviously when discussing TRADE VALUE, we're going to be assuming he gets traded for the sake of the conversation. Will he be traded? Who knows, but if we're discussing TRADE VALUE, I think it's fair to start disucssing things related to a TRADE.

Like being in decline at 30 for the sake of trying to lower his value. Like saying a month less on his contract for each month he stays on the Orioles. That point only holds water If Roberts says he will not sign a extension.

Consider this .... Bummer a Seattle fan visiting here says the Bedard 5 for 1 deal is a terrible deal for the Mariners. He mentions over & over that the deal wasn't worth 2 years of Bedard. Is he right ... I guess it will depend on how the Mariners fare the next few years in their divison. I asked him if Beard would sign a 4 year 65 million extension would it be a good deal then??? He said yes. Bedard will sign a extension if its for what he considers he is worth.

Should we assume Bedard will also be in decline since he's also 30???

[Rob H]

I'm not sure that part of your argument holds water

Ok, I'll put my money where my mouth is.

"Major" June and July deals for position players from the last few years:

July 30, 2007 - Mets trade OF Dustin Martin (Hi A) and C Drew Butera (AA) for 2B Luis Castillo.

July 30, 2007 - Braves trade C Jarrod Saltalamacchia (MLB), SS Elvis Andrus (Hi A), LHP Matt Harrison (AA), RHP Neftali Feliz ®, and LHP Beau Jones (Low A) for 1B Mark Teixeira and LHP Ron Mahay.

July 27, 2007 - Phillies trade RHP Michael Dubee (Low A) for 2B Tadahito Iguchi

July 27, 2007 - Cleveland trades C Max Ramirez (Hi A) for OF Kenny Lofton

July 16, 2007 - Cubs trade C Rob Bowen (MLB) and LHP Jerry Blevins (AA) for C Jason Kendall

June 29, 2007 - Padres trade RHP Andrew Brown (AAA) for OF Milton Bradley

June 20, 2007 - Padres trade C Rob Bowen (MLB) and OF Kyler Burke (Low A) for C Michael Barrett

July 31, 2006 - Dodgers trade OF Joel Guzman (AAA) and OF Sergio Petroza (Hi A) for SS Julio Lugo

July 31, 2006 - Padres trade RHP Jose Ceda ® for INF Todd Walker

July 31, 2006 - Tigers trade RHP Brian Rogers (AA) for 1B Sean Casey

July 30, 2006 - Cardinals trade INF Hector Luna (MLB) for 2B Ronnie Belliard

July 30, 2006 - Yankees trade SS C.J. Henry (Low A), LHP Matt Smith (AAA), C Jesus Sanchez ®, and RHP Carlos Monasteros ® for OF Bobby Abreu and P Corey Lidle

July 28, 2006 - Brewers trade RHP Wilfredo Laureano (Low A) for 3B David Bell

July 28, 2006 - Dodgers trade INF Wilson Betemit for RHP Danys Baez (MLB) and INF Willy Aybar (MLB)

July 28, 2006 - Rangers trade OF Kevin Mench (MLB), RHP Francisco Cordero (MLB), OF Laynce Nix (AAA), and LHP Julian Cordero (Low A) for OF Carlos Lee and OF Nelson Cruz (AAA)

July 26, 2006 - Indians trade OF Shin Soo Choo (AAA) and LHP Shawn Nottingham (Hi A) for 1B Ben Broussard

July 21, 2006 - Giants trade RHP Jeremy Accardo (MLB) for Shea Hillenbrand and RHP Vinnie Chulk

July 13, 2006 - Reds trade OF Austin Kearns (MLB), SS Felipe Lopez (MLB), and RHP Ryan Wagner (AAA) for RHP Gary Majewski (MLB), LHP Bill Bray (MLB), SS Royce Clayton (MLB), INF Brendan Harris (AAA), and RHP Daryl Thompson (SS)

July 12, 2006 - Astros trade SS Ben Zobrist (AA), and RHP Mitch Talbot (AA) for CI Aubrey Huff

June 9, 2006 - Rockies trade OF Eli Marerro for 2B Kaz Matsui

July 31, 2005 - Cubs trade OF Jody Gerut (MLB) for OF Matt Lawton

July 30, 2005 - Red Sox trade Kyle Bono (Hi A) and INF Kenny Perez (AAA) for OF Jose Cruz Jr.

July 30, 2005 - Giants trade RHP Jesse Foppert (AAA) and C Yorvit Torrealba (MLB) for OF Randy Winn

July 30, 2005 - Padres trade C Miguel Ojeda (AAA) and RHP Nathaniel Mateo (AA) for C Miguel Olivo

July 28, 2005 - Padres trade INF J.J. Furmaniak (AAA) for C David Ross

July 23, 2005 - Padres trade RHP Travis Chick (AA) and RHP Justin Germano (AA) for 3B Joe Randa

July 18, 2005 - Cubs trade OF Jason Dubois (AAA) for OF Jody Gerut

July 13, 2005 - Rockies trade LHP Joe Kennedy (MLB) and LHP Jay Witasick (MLB) for OF Eric Byrnes and SS Omar Quintanilla (AA)

July 13, 2005 - Nationals trade RHP Zach Day (MLB), OF J.J. Davis (AAA), OF Doc Brooks (Hi A) for OF Preston Wilson

July 13, 2005 - A's trade RHP Chad Bradford (MLB) for OF Jay Payton

June 8, 2005 - Tigers trade RHP Ugueth Urbina (MLB) and SS Ramon Martinez (MLB) for 2B Placido Polanco

You really aren't seeing too many valuable pieces that are major league ready being moved.

[skiba7]

Ok, I'm seriously convinced that you don't really care what you have to say, as long as it bashes me.

Like being in decline at 30 for the sake of trying to lower his value.

Again, I never said Roberts was declining. Please show me where I did. If you can do that, I'll apologize.

Like saying a month less on his contract for each month he stays on the Orioles.

Is that not a true statement?

That point only holds water If Roberts says he will not sign a extension.

Dude. I literally JUST explained that to you. We're discussing trade possibilities and potentially holding onto him until the deadline and trading him then. Please try to understand that..

I'm done arguing with you since you continue to put words in my month and refuse to listen to what I'm saying.

[davearm]

No one can be put on the DL until the 13th. In theory they could put some one on the DL then, but more than likely they will start to DFA some of the 4 or 5 players that won't be on our 40 man at the end of the season.

Roberts is a middle infielder with good bat skills for his position, great speed for any position, and wonderful base stealing ability. His value is much more than any package that the Cubs have rumored to have offered to date.

While there is the risk of a bad season, or injury in waiting, he is also not going to be a FA at season's end. If we had to keep him into next season to get full value, that is better than trading him and then looking back in 9 months and saying, wow, we got nothing for him. At some point this season or next offseason there will be plenty of teams looking for a lead off man, a 2B, or just some speed to add to the lineup. There is every year and this one will be no different.

I suspect you could browse through the archives of some Braves boards to about a year before the Braves non-tendered *their* former Allstar 2B -- Marcus Giles -- and watched him leave for zilch, and I'm sure you'll see lots of posts just like this one.

The fact is you could keep Roberts, and in 9 months look back and say wow, we can't get anything for him. That one cuts both ways.

[Roll Tide]

Ok, I'm seriously convinced that you don't really care what you have to say, as long as it bashes me.

Again, I never said Roberts was declining. Please show me where I did. If you can do that, I'll apologize.

You said a month older & a month less each month on his 2 year deal. What else could you possibly have been insinuating if not trying to say he will month by month be worth less & he's not likely to have better numbers than 2007 & something about a hamstring. Roberts only real injury wasn't a conditioning issue it was a fluke collision at 1B. (dont quote me word for word as I didn't go back to copy paste but thats clearly what you said)

Dude. I literally JUST explained that to you. We're discussing trade possibilities and potentially holding onto him until the deadline and trading him then. Please try to understand that..

You were pointing out reasons why his value would be less. Thats your opinion by in no way fact!

[allstar1579]

I suspect you could browse through the archives of some Braves boards to about a year before the Braves non-tendered *their* former Allstar 2B -- Marcus Giles -- and watched him leave for zilch, and I'm sure you'll see lots of posts just like this one.

The fact is you could keep Roberts, and in 9 months look back and say wow, we can't get anything for him. That one cuts both ways.

Giles made one all-star team in 2003, 3.5 years before he was non-tendered. He also had numerous heart tests in 2006 before they finally diagnosed him with acid-reflux, which coincidently is about the time his production started declining. The Braves tried him as a leadoff man, which failed miserably.

I just don't see how people, clearly fans of other teams, can come in with such high opinions of their own players, and talk down players on our team, on a message board FOR our team.

Yeah, hypothetically anyone can say a meteor will fall from the sky, and take off his left arm, drastically reducing Brian's trade value. But I feel like some people here would see that happen to their own team's player and still think that one-armed player could be traded straight up for Brian Roberts.

[skiba7]

You said a month older & a month less each month on his 2 year deal. What else could you possibly have been insinuating if not trying to say he will month by month be worth less & he's not likely to have better numbers than 2007 & something about a hamstring. Roberts only real injury wasn't a conditioning issue it was a fluke collision at 1B. (dont quote me word for word as I didn't go back to copy paste but thats clearly what you said)

First of all, I never said anything about a hamstring. I have no idea where you're getting that from. As for the "month less of his contract thing", who said that had anything to do with his age? When trading for a player, you want a guy with more time on his contract, correct? It's a prettey obvious assumption that Roberts with 2 years on his contract is of less value than Roberts with 1 of 1 and a half years. Did you really not pick up on that? You didn't "copy and paste my quote because I never said anything even close to that, but thanks for again putting words in my mouth.

[Rob H]

Giles made one all-star team in 2003, 3.5 years before he was non-tendered. He also had numerous heart tests in 2006 before they finally diagnosed him with acid-reflux, which coincidently is about the time his production started declining. The Braves tried him as a leadoff man, which failed miserably.

I just don't see how people, clearly fans of other teams, can come in with such high opinions of their own players, and talk down players on our team, on a message board FOR our team.

Yeah, hypothetically anyone can say a meteor will fall from the sky, and take off his left arm, drastically reducing Brian's trade value. But I feel like some people here would see that happen to their own team's player and still think that one-armed player could be traded straight up for Brian Roberts.

Nobody here is talking down Roberts. The discussion is when his value is the highest.

I think my last post pretty conclusively illustrates that his value wont be higher at the deadline, or at least not in the vein that most here would prefer. (everybody seems to only want ML-ready players). And given the choice of acquiring him with one season on his contract, or with two seasons on his contract, most teams are gonna be willing to give up more with two years.

Barring an extremely odd set of circumstances, Roberts is going to bring his best return right now. You could try to wait longer and pray that he has a ridiculous .330/.400/.550 season with 50 SB, but there's just as much (if not more) risk that he declines by as much, or gets injured. Given a neutral set of circumstances though, Roberts is only going to lose trade value.

[zff4]

Ok, I'll put my money where my mouth is.

You really aren't seeing too many valuable pieces that are major league ready being moved.

I appreciate you going to that effort. And I concede that the majority of mid-season deals aren't blockbusters. But it doesn't rule out meaningful mid-season trades. One struck me as instructive in that regard.

July 30, 2007 - Braves trade C Jarrod Saltalamacchia (MLB), SS Elvis Andrus (Hi A), LHP Matt Harrison (AA), RHP Neftali Feliz ®, and LHP Beau Jones (Low A) for 1B Mark Teixeira and LHP Ron Mahay.

I may be in the minority but I'm not sure I'm seeing how we're appreciably improved by the Cubs offer, and at this point, am feeling sufficiently good enough about a Scott, Jones, Markakis outfield to not necessarily covet Pie who I'm not entirely sold on.

[skiba7]

I just don't see how people, clearly fans of other teams, can come in with such high opinions of their own players, and talk down players on our team, on a message board FOR our team.

If you're referring to me, then yoiu're way off. I think the Cubs farm system is garbage. I do, however, think that the deal centered around Gallagher is very fair for Roberts. I haven't seen anybody on here talk down Roberts. Just because we're not like "OMG he's an all-star second basemen we need 2 blue chip prospects for him!@11" doesn't mean we don't think he's good.

[Rob H]

I appreciate you going to that effort. And I concede that the majority of mid-season deals aren't blockbusters. But it doesn't rule out meaningful mid-season trades. One struck me as instructive in that regard.

July 30, 2007 - Braves trade C Jarrod Saltalamacchia (MLB), SS Elvis Andrus (Hi A), LHP Matt Harrison (AA), RHP Neftali Feliz ®, and LHP Beau Jones (Low A) for 1B Mark Teixeira and LHP Ron Mahay.

I may be in the minority but I'm not sure I'm seeing how we're appreciably improved by the Cubs offer, and at this point, am feeling sufficiently good enough about a Scott, Jones, Markakis outfield to not necessarily covet Pie who I'm not entirely sold on.

I didn't rule it out entirely. But not too many teams have prospects the stature of Salty that are actually blocked at the ML level come the deadline. And the rest of the guys in that trade are exactly the kind of prospect a few years out that I was referring to earlier.

Basically, if you hold onto him in hopes of dealing him at the deadline, you're hoping that Jeff Kent has a stroke midseason.

[zff4]

stroke

I think we're all in danger of having a stroke as edgy as this offseason has made us, but the level of discourse tonight in this and other threads has been exceptionally interesting

[Rob H]

I think we're all in danger of having a stroke as edgy as this offseason has made us, but the level of discourse tonight in this and other threads has been exceptionally interesting

I'm doing my darndest to avoid saying anything that would put a bullseye on my back. Tonight does not seem to be the night for that. Tensions seem to be running high.