Francoeur says "We owe those guys an ass-whuppin to be honest with you."

[Palmoripken]

I would still take a WS title and what they are rebuilding from.

For whatever reason, if you don't spend $$ you don't win. Sure teams like rays or royals can get to series but I can't remember the last moderate to low payroll to win it all.

Perhaps white sox? And 2003 marlins before then...

Not saying you shouldn't spend, saying you don't need to do what the Yankees and Dodgers do. Teams can and do win with midrange payrolls like what we have.

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[Crazysilver03]

I would still take a WS title and what they are rebuilding from.

For whatever reason, if you don't spend $$ you don't win. Sure teams like rays or royals can get to series but I can't remember the last moderate to low payroll to win it all.

Perhaps white sox? And 2003 marlins before then...

As a fan this has to be incredibly painful to watch. And to also know it won't get fixed anytime soon. Don't know if I would trade a WS title for this mess.

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[backwardsk]

I would still take a WS title and what they are rebuilding from.

For whatever reason, if you don't spend $$ you don't win. Sure teams like rays or royals can get to series but I can't remember the last moderate to low payroll to win it all.

Perhaps white sox? And 2003 marlins before then...

The 2010 Giants and 2011 Cardinals weren't in the top third in payroll.

But, yeah, I'd trade in some lean years for a World Series.

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[weams]

The 2010 Giants and 2011 Cardinals weren't in the top third in payroll.

But, yeah, I'd trade in some lean years for a World Series.

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It's not some lean years. It's some bad as can be years. For a chance at a WS. Because once you get to the playoffs, there are no odds. It is just luck.

[weams]

As a fan this has to be incredibly painful to watch. And to also know it won't get fixed anytime soon. Don't know if I would trade a WS title for this mess.

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As I have said. All I ask is that the team keep my interest in September. Playoffs are great. But not necessary for me to enjoy the year.

[Machado13]

Not saying you shouldn't spend, saying you don't need to do what the Yankees and Dodgers do. Teams can and do win with midrange payrolls like what we have.

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Oh I agree. That's overkill and a lot of deadweight. Funny the Red Sox always complained but then went out and purchased a championship themselves.

The best model is giants and cards for sure. Not the highest...but spend enough and supplement with top notch systems/scouting department

[Palmoripken]

The 2010 Giants and 2011 Cardinals weren't in the top third in payroll.

But, yeah, I'd trade in some lean years for a World Series.

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I guess I would too. I've never seen a WS winner- I'm 27. But I also do like the possibility of having a massive window to compete year in and year out. You guys who grew up in the 60's and 70's were fortunate. I think Weaver's O's teams would have definitely had more pennants and WS with modern playoffs but that's baseball. What is great and I think we all agree regardless of how we may feel about how we want to get tehre that winning is great. These past few years have been so fun.

[Palmoripken]

Oh I agree. That's overkill and a lot of deadweight. Funny the Red Sox always complained but then went out and purchased a championship themselves.

The best model is giants and cards for sure. Not the highest...but spend enough and supplement with top notch systems/scouting department

We agree. We're definitely on the same page here. But yeah it was funny how the Red Sox pretty much became another Yankees. I love pointing that out to their fans who complain about the "Evil Empire." I mean I haet the Yankees more than the Sox still but Red Sox fans are a bunch of crites.

[backwardsk]

It's not some lean years. It's some bad as can be years. For a chance at a WS. Because once you get to the playoffs, there are no odds. It is just luck.

I was 4 in '83. I'd make the sacrifice to see them hoist a trophy.

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[Crazysilver03]

As I have said. All I ask is that the team keep my interest in September. Playoffs are great. But not necessary for me to enjoy the year.

Agreed. Baseball is entertainment. The Phillies model is entertaining the year they win. And maybe entertaining half of the next year. And that not entertaining for another decade.

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[Palmoripken]

It'd be easier for me for me to accept people and I realize no one in this thread has said that we should do the Phills model but it would be easier for me to accept that if you could tell me with 100% certainity that trading for big name so and so or signing him would guarantee a WS win. But you cannot do that unless you double as a fortune teller. When I was a kid, '96 and '97 were great fun but in hindsight it's easy to see why the fun did not last long. FAs get old, the farm system goes raw due to you not having as many picks due to signging those FA's in the first place. I am not saying you should never go for a talent. The Miller trade was right on last summer and I am glad Danny did it but I am also glad we did not do something like a Lester rental.

[scOtt]

I don't mind him saying that at all. They DO owe us one! That's good hard baseball.

I just don't think they're near good enough to do it.

[sportsfan8703]

Being in there situation. I'd take the WS and deal with some lean years. Their in the NL East. Big market. Able to have a big payroll. If they commit to a rebuild now I could see them being contenders again in 2017. They'll be able to get top prospects for Hamels and Papplebon. Mid level prospects for Harang and Revere. Lee's contract has a buyout for next year. Then get the first pick in the draft.

The thing is though is will Amaro do that? Or try to win next year and whatever money you save through trades spend it on big FA's to go along with the untradebles(Howard, Utley, Ruiz). We know what they'll do if they bring in Macphail.

[scOtt]

Being in there situation. I'd take the WS and deal with some lean years. Their in the NL East. Big market. Able to have a big payroll. If they commit to a rebuild now I could see them being contenders again in 2017. They'll be able to get top prospects for Hamels and Papplebon. Mid level prospects for Harang and Revere. Lee's contract has a buyout for next year. Then get the first pick in the draft.

The thing is though is will Amaro do that? Or try to win next year and whatever money you save through trades spend it on big FA's to go along with the untradebles(Howard, Utley, Ruiz). We know what they'll do if they bring in Macphail.

Amazing trades, no International and he won't have 1/10 the deep depth that DD has. AM is a decent starting pitcher. He's no closer.

[BohKnowsBmore]

This is what happens when you overpay for older players and they all go bad at once. You end up with a $143 million worth of onfield garbage. Andy MacPhail has proven he's pretty good at "fire sales" so perhaps he would be a good one to start presiding over this mess, at least if he's willing to do the trading of course.

I think there is a bit of a lesson to those who simply want the team to spend "more" on "someone."

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