Is it ok to give up on Miguel Gonzalez?

[sportsfan8703]

This spring training was really odd. It seems like 2 huge mis-evaluations took place.

1. Gonzo being cut because the staff thought he was done

2. Kim almost being cut because they thought he was not being MLB ready

My guess is that Buck will have some type of plan in place to make sure this doesn't happen again next year.

I think that maybe the way the Bud Norris thing played out last year had a bearing on what they thought Gonzo might be this year. I think Buck thought Gonzo was headed down the same path. I don't know what the answer is, but knowing Buck, I'm sure he will try to address it.

It wasn't an odd spring. They were both terrible. Here's the plan for next spring. Play well, and you make the team.

[LookitsPuck]

Sure, money had a role in it.

But, so did going 2-6 in the 2nd half of last season, with a 6.14 ERA and 1.66 WHIP.

Throw in a bad spring and a dip in his velocity, some thought he was done for.

Someone in the organization royally screwed up. That's easy to say. Gonzo was picked up by the White Sox and was throwing the low 90s again.

Regardless of how much you want to wax poetically about the scenario, you're not a talent evaluator (and neither is 99.9% of this forum). So what we can do is take the actions of the organization at face value assuming that someone isn't doing their job.

If you look at the Kim debacle, it was a scenario where Brady was impressed w/ him, and then Duquette/Buck wanted to throw him underwater after a poor start to the spring, then they said he wasn't going to come north...and lo and behold, he's one of our best hitters. Same thing happened w/ Gonzo, but unfortunately he was cut. By most accounts, the O's were trying to send Kim back to Korea.

Who the hell is evaluating this talent?

[LookitsPuck]

It wasn't an odd spring. They were both terrible. Here's the plan for next spring. Play well, and you make the team.

What was Bud's excuse last year?

Gallardo's excuse this year?

How about Jake Fox's utter dominance in ST?

So suddenly ST is the litmus test on how they'll do during the regular season? Adam Jones looked utterly lost for a couple weeks during the regular season. What if that happened during ST? Does he make the team?

[canonfaz]

It wasn't an odd spring. They were both terrible. Here's the plan for next spring. Play well, and you make the team.

Everyone goes through slumps and luls in productivity and results. Gonzo and Kim just happened to be in that phase during spring training.

I love Buck and DD, but them and their staff need to do a much better job of evaluating during spring training next year IMO.

[sportsfan8703]

What was Bud's excuse last year?

Gallardo's excuse this year?

How about Jake Fox's utter dominance in ST?

So suddenly ST is the litmus test on how they'll do during the regular season? Adam Jones looked utterly lost for a couple weeks during the regular season. What if that happened during ST? Does he make the team?

Gonzo was hurt and stunk last year and looked the same in ST. And you're right, Adam Jones and Jake Fox were in similar situation.

There clearly was an open competition for a SP spot and an OF spot in ST. Gonzo and Kim had horrible springs and didn't win a job. Not every job is up for grabs. 5th SP and one position spot are usually up for grabs in ST.

Everyone goes through slumps and luls in productivity and results. Gonzo and Kim just happened to be in that phase during spring training.

I love Buck and DD, but them and their staff need to do a much better job of evaluating during spring training next year IMO.

They did a great job in ST. Kim made an adjustment and changed his swing. Cut it down significantly. Kudos to Kim and Coolbaugh for all the hard work. Gonzo had a near 5 ERA entering his last start. Two weeks ago Mike Wright got his ERA down after shutting out KC. So don't overreact for bad results in ST. But overreact for good results after a pitcher lowers his ERA from 4.74 to 4.29. Got it. Now I understand.

So if Gonzo went 5IP with 4ER last night and his ERA jumped over 5 then DD and Buck were right?

[LookitsPuck]

You don't sign a guy for 2 years who can't be sent to the minors without consent...and then say it's an open competition. And you certainly don't bench him for part of spring training, make asinine statements to the press that he's not coming up with the club and then have whispers saying they're trying to send him back to Korea.

Just terrible PR. Sends a bad message back to Korea where the Orioles organization is held in low regard.

As for the 5th SP spot, is it really an open competition if Ubaldo had a 12.27 ERA in ST and Gallardo had a 10.38?

[LookitsPuck]

Gonzo was hurt and stunk last year and looked the same in ST. And you're right, Adam Jones and Jake Fox were in similar situation.

There clearly was an open competition for a SP spot and an OF spot in ST. Gonzo and Kim had horrible springs and didn't win a job. Not every job is up for grabs. 5th SP and one position spot are usually up for grabs in ST.

They did a great job in ST. Kim made an adjustment and changed his swing. Cut it down significantly. Kudos to Kim and Coolbaugh for all the hard work. Gonzo had a near 5 ERA entering his last start. Two weeks ago Mike Wright got his ERA down after shutting out KC. So don't overreact for bad results in ST. But overreact for good results after a pitcher lowers his ERA from 4.74 to 4.29. Got it. Now I understand.

So if Gonzo went 5IP with 4ER last night and his ERA jumped over 5 then DD and Buck were right?

Gonzo has had 2 clunkers out of 9 starts this year.

His five starts after his first clunker: .248/.339/.356 - .695 OPS with a 3.25 ERA.

His start before his most recent clunker: 6 IP, 5 SO, 1 BB, 3 H, 1 ER vs. the Nats

His start after his most recent clunker: 6 2/3 IP, 5 SO, 2 BB, 4 H, 1 ER vs. the Red Sox

Do you want to admit that Gonzo has been above average in most of his starts?

[PaulFolk]

IIRC, Gonzo was released in part because the Orioles wouldve had to pay him 5 million dollars or release him and pay substantially less. Money had to have been something to do with it.

Money didn't have something to do with it -- it had everything to do with it.

Gonzalez had an option left. Even if the O's thought he wouldn't rebound, they easily could've put him in the minors to start the year. The reason they didn't is because they wanted to save $3 million. It was a purely financially motivated decision.

[OFFNY]

Gonzalez pitched well against the Nationals on June 9th, then got shellacked by the Tigers on June 14th.

For the season so far, he has a 4.74 ERA and a 1.534 WHIP in 8 starts for the White Sox.

I believe that it is still too premature to declare one way or another whether or not the decision to not retain him was a big mistake.

I'll be rooting for him tomorrow night, when he goes up against Steven Wright and the Red Sox.

Me too.

And the White Sox are my 2nd favorite team, as well.

White Sox ........ White Sox ........ Goooooooooooooo, White Sox !!!

Same here. Gonzo is one of my most favorite ex-Orioles. And the White Sox are my 2nd favorite team. Goooooooooooo White Sox!!!!!

Gonzalez was excellent tonight.

Unfortunately, the White Sox' offense was not.

The game is tied at 1-1, heading into the bottom of the 9th inning.

Tonight, I'll rooting for Chris Sale.

Tuesday's Red Sox-White Sox Matchups: Clay Buchholz vs. Chris Sale

(By Nicholas Frazier)

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/06/21/tuesdays-red-sox-white-sox-matchups-clay-buchholz-vs-chris-sale/

oooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Frobby]

I thought he was done. He has a 7 run and 1 run game as his last two games.

Nothing is proven one way or another by his stats from his starts so far this year. But I can report on how he looked last night. First, he got his fastball up to 93 at least once. Second, he was throwing a lot of those beautiful breaking pitches and split changes that end up just a bit out of the strike zone but that are impossible to lay off. In short, he looked exactly like he looked when he was effective for the Orioles.

[LookitsPuck]

Money didn't have something to do with it -- it had everything to do with it.

Gonzalez had an option left. Even if the O's thought he wouldn't rebound, they easily could've put him in the minors to start the year. The reason they didn't is because they wanted to save $3 million. It was a purely financially motivated decision.

I'll never understand signing Matusz for $4m to be a LOOGY when we have better options, but cutting Gonzo to save $3m when we don't have better options. Just weird, dumb decisions by this org. Then we have to give up a comp pick to try and "right" the wrong.

[Punchandjudy]

I'll never understand signing Matusz for $4m to be a LOOGY when we have better options, but cutting Gonzo to save $3m when we don't have better options. Just weird, dumb decisions by this org. Then we have to give up a comp pick to try and "right" the wrong.

Funny how DD never gets a tough question like this presented to him when the MASN guys are softballing him during an interview...

[TouchemAll]

Didn't like the move at the time . Hate it now. Wish him all the best. Good guy. We sure could use him tomorrow.

I actually didn't mind this move to start, but I sure agree with the rest now. Boy could we ever use him over Ublado or Wright right now. For the life of me how the he!! did we keep Matusz and dump Gonzo is a nightmare in the making.

[SpeaktoDamien]

Funny how DD never gets a tough question like this presented to him when the MASN guys are softballing him during an interview...

I may be the biggest Gonzo fan in the world. Love his story, love his performance for the Orioles, and I think his "stuff" is better than the common perception. He consistently beat FIP longer than easily explainable.

And, I think the CBA totally screws late bloomers like him and its a shame he has never made any real money in MLB despite his run of continued success.

BUT, enough with the 2nd guessing every little move. Duquette has literally the best record in the AL since he took over, from a small to mid size market playing in the AL East. He is a genius, a miracle worker. You don't bat 1.000 in baseball.

[Phantom]

I may be the biggest Gonzo fan in the world. Love his story, love his performance for the Orioles, and I think his "stuff" is better than the common perception. He consistently beat FIP longer than easily explainable.

Did he though? Outperforming your FiP three years in a row is impressive and maybe even informative, but I think Gonzo really got helped by the fact that those were his first (and only) three years to that point. The fact that he didn't outperform his peripherals in his fourth year (and now his fifth so far), combined with the fact that he never showed that ability in the minors, makes this seem more likely luck than skill.

And, I think the CBA totally screws late bloomers like him and its a shame he has never made any real money in MLB despite his run of continued success.

The CBA is awful to anyone that peaks at the wrong time. They need more performance bonuses.