[Baseball America] International Reviews: Baltimore Orioles

[Chavez Ravine]

On 4/14/2017 at 8:08 AM, Frobby said:

While I do worry about this, the organization has been having overall success with its approach to building a winning team.   I don't know how much I should really care about the fact that teams that have had less success overall are spending more money on a particular method of talent acquisition than we are.   (And yes, I know that the more successful teams also spend more internationally.    I'm just saying that I care most about overall results, not specific methods.)

It really is an interesting question. To me, the value of the international market seems that there have been less restrictions on what you could spend.  It was another way that you could get talent equivalent to a first round draft pick (if you spent the money).  But setting aside the top talent (and the question of whether we should invest money in it), there has also been a lot of money spent on other things besides that first round talent...such as buscones and 14 year old kids that some scout raves about.  Dan seems to have concluded that there is more talent (or at least MLB value) to be found in the extended waiver wire and its various incarnations...to the point that he sells his international slots for them.

Is that true?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Chavez Ravine said:

It really is an interesting question. To me, the value of the international market seems that there have been less restrictions on what you could spend.  It was another way that you could get talent equivalent to a first round draft pick (if you spent the money).  But setting aside the top talent (and the question of whether we should invest money in it), there has also been a lot of money spent on other things besides that first round talent...such as buscones and 14 year old kids that some scout raves about.  Dan seems to have concluded that there is more talent (or at least MLB value) to be found in the extended waiver wire and its various incarnations...to the point that he sells his international slots for them.

Is that true?

I think Dan has an operational budget that comes from ownership and that amount is less than the total of the International slots.  So Dan trades them for what he can get.

[Chavez Ravine]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I think Dan has an operational budget that comes from ownership and that amount is less than the total of the International slots.  So Dan trades them for what he can get.

I think you are right..partly.  Dan is just balancing the budget.  Plus the organizational  aversion to the international market predates him. But he doesn't seem to be pining too hard about it.  And I half wonder if he has stumbled into some halfway efficient use of money.  Guys on the DFA fringe typically have a lot of data detailing why they suck, much more than an international kid.  Does that divert money to the international guys....to an unwarranted extent?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Chavez Ravine said:

I think you are right..partly.  Dan is just balancing the budget.  Plus the organizational  aversion to the international market predates him. But he doesn't seem to be pining too hard about it.  And I half wonder if he has stumbled into some halfway efficient use of money.  Guys on the DFA fringe typically have a lot of data detailing why they suck, much more than an international kid.  Does that divert money to the international guys....to an unwarranted extent?

Other than Brach has Dan actually gotten much impact from the product of these moves?

[thezeroes]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Other than Brach has Dan actually gotten much impact from the product of these moves?

Some will need some time to know.  The Reds deal for Franderlin Romero is still at Fredrick.  Seems to be pitching well in that venue.  I have not looked up all the others but they, as the Reds deal may, take two to three years to become fruit on the vine.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

Some will need some time to know.  The Reds deal for Franderlin Romero is still at Fredrick.  Seems to be pitching well in that venue.  I have not looked up all the others but they, as the Reds deal may, take two to three years to become fruit on the vine.

I would assume that the turn around time of someone that needs to be on the 40 man roster would need to be pretty quick.  Can the O's blow two or three years on the 40 man for a guy that might not even be impactful?

[Chavez Ravine]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Other than Brach has Dan actually gotten much impact from the product of these moves?

Besides Brach, I actually can only think of impact he traded away for cash considerations: Pat Neshek.

I think what we are talking about is less impact exactly than it is a few marginal wins.  Did Dan get a few more marginal wins for less money than he he would have gotten spending all his international slot money?  Answering that takes more work ethic than I have

 

[thezeroes]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I would assume that the turn around time of someone that needs to be on the 40 man roster would need to be pretty quick.  Can the O's blow two or three years on the 40 man for a guy that might not even be impactful?

That has been and will continue to be done by a lot of teams.  The entire process of the "Rule 5" protection does take some serious evaluation when a player is first put into a new system.  With the new CBA not allowing these Forty Man Spots to be taken by June draft picks is/was a step in the right direction.  Matusz, Wieters, Bundy would not have been pushed /allowed  at the MLB club as soon as they were. IMO

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

That has been and will continue to be done by a lot of teams.  The entire process of the "Rule 5" protection does take some serious evaluation when a player is first put into a new system.  With the new CBA not allowing these Forty Man Spots to be taken by June draft picks is/was a step in the right direction.  Matusz, Wieters, Bundy would not have been pushed /allowed  at the MLB club as soon as they were. IMO

I know Wieters didn't sign a ML deal.  If anything the consensus among the "experts" is that the O's kept Wieters down longer than they should have to get the extra year of team control.

The one that really hurt was Loewen.

[MurphDogg]

On 4/14/2017 at 10:39 AM, Crazysilver03 said:

I understand that they aren't taking advantage of an avenue but what is the success rate? The Orioles have gotten little bang for what little buck they have spent. And in general MLB has gotten little bang for the hundreds of millions of dollars spent. 

Schoop has been pretty good. He is the only Orioles that was acquired as an amateur free agent.

Luis Severino and Gary Sanchez are the only Yankees that were acquired as amateur free agents.

Alex Colome is the only Rays player acquired as an amateur free agent.

Xander Bogaerts is the only Red Sox player acquired as an amateur free agent.

The Blue Jays have no players acquired as amateur free agents (although Roberto Osuna was acquired at 16 from the Mexican League).

It isn't like the Orioles are that far behind the rest of the AL East.

[Frobby]

12 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Other than Brach has Dan actually gotten much impact from the product of these moves?

Dan didn't use international slot money to get Brach.    He traded a younger pitcher named Devin Jones.    

[Can_of_corn]

15 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Dan didn't use international slot money to get Brach.    He traded a younger pitcher named Devin Jones.    

Yes I know.  By "these moves" I was talking about the marginal gain moves in general.  Restricting it to solely international slot transactions seemed overly restrictive.

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes I know.  By "these moves" I was talking about the marginal gain moves in general.  Restricting it to solely international slot transactions seemed overly restrictive.

Well, he certainly picked Miguel Gonzalez off the trash heap.   And then foolishly put him back on it four years later.    

Getting away from pitchers, he certainly milked some good years out of McLouth and Pearce.    

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Well, he certainly picked Miguel Gonzalez off the trash heap.   And then foolishly put him back on it four years later.    

Getting away from pitchers, he certainly milked some good years out of McLouth and Pearce.    

I evidently wasn't anywhere near as specific as I should have been.

Yes your three examples are solid, but they were all free agents correct?

Sorry I was not clear that I was talking specifically about deals with other teams.  Trading non-prospects, cash, international slots for players.

Dan has done a very solid job with marginal folks on the open market.

[Frobby]

59 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I evidently wasn't anywhere near as specific as I should have been.

Yes your three examples are solid, but they were all free agents correct?

Sorry I was not clear that I was talking specifically about deals with other teams.  Trading non-prospects, cash, international slots for players.

Dan has done a very solid job with marginal folks on the open market.

Pearce was purchased from the Yankees the first time, picked up off waivers from the Yankees the second time.