[Baseball America] International Reviews: Baltimore Orioles

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Pearce was purchased from the Yankees the first time, picked up off waivers from the Yankees the second time.

But he was only noteworthy the time he was picked off waivers. 

Still hard to believe he put up a near six win season.

[thezeroes]

For the record:

Jan 06 - Traded Yovani Gallardo and $$ to Seattle for Seth Smith

Feb 19 - Traded Ryan Moseley to Dodgers for Vidal Nuno

Feb 21 - Traded PTBN or $$ to NYY for Richard Bleier

Mar 28 -Traded PTBN or $$ to Phila. for Alec Asher

Apr 06 - Traded PTBN or $$ to Tex for Andrew Faulkner

Apr 07 - Traded PTBN or $$ to Col for Miguel Castro

Apr 13 - Traded Int. Bonus slot to Milwaukee for Damien Magnifico

Apr 13 - Traded Drake for PTBN or $$ with Milwaukee

These may or may nor work out but the Gallardo trade alone was well worth the roster change. IMO  All the PTBN are to be still worked out.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

But he was only noteworthy the time he was picked off waivers. 

Still hard to believe he put up a near six win season.

I've always been skeptical of the defensive component of that season.

[TradeAngelos]

On 4/14/2017 at 10:26 AM, eddie83 said:

The only thing about this topic that gets me is the blame game. I mean does anyone think Dan doesn't want to spend internationally?  This is on the owner. We have never spent no matter who the GM was. 

Truest words ever spoken. 

This team is run like a business first, baseball team second. Pete can't sell a bunch of latin players no one knows or cares about. So he will pocket that money every time. 

 

[Bradysburns]

This was only a problem for me when we weren't winning ball games. Frankly, I don't care if 100% of our players are from Wichita, Kansas... if we're winning. 

From what I've read, Dan has been pretty clear about this, and it's purposeful. He's choosing not to spend a lot of resources in the Latin markets. I believe he said there are a lot of scammy-type operators down there. You don't often know what you're risking your money and time on, in terms of the various players. So I'm assuming he feels his risk-reward is better focused in other areas. 

That said, I would welcome more great players - from wherever. And it would be really nice to figure out a way to get more out of the international amateur markets. But as long as we're winning, you'll hear no scathing reviews from me. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Bradysburns said:

This was only a problem for me when we weren't winning ball games. Frankly, I don't care if 100% of our players are from Wichita, Kansas... if we're winning. 

From what I've read, Dan has been pretty clear about this, and it's purposeful. He's choosing not to spend a lot of resources in the Latin markets. I believe he said there are a lot of scammy-type operators down there. You don't often know what you're risking your money and time on, in terms of the various players. So I'm assuming he feels his risk-reward is better focused in other areas. 

That said, I would welcome more great players - from wherever. And it would be really nice to figure out a way to get more out of the international amateur markets. But as long as we're winning, you'll hear no scathing reviews from me. 

I know Andy made comments of that sort.  I don't recall any from Dan.  Than again I don't pay a huge amount of attention to what Dan says.

[Bradysburns]

On 4/16/2017 at 1:29 PM, Can_of_corn said:

I know Andy made comments of that sort.  I don't recall any from Dan.  Than again I don't pay a huge amount of attention to what Dan says.

You might be right - I'm getting a little senile. That could have been Andy. 

But scraping LatAm for young, cheap talent - by this point - is an extremely obvious and somewhat mainstream strategy. I suspect Dan is a step ahead in finding value in less-appreciated areas. Clearly, he's willing to trade away LatAm opportunities for more known (and less sexy) quantities. Seems to be working out pretty well so far. I'm not saying I don't want us to acquire the best amateurs in the Caribbean, of course. But I'm intrigued by the idea that my thinking on the matter is pedestrian and obvious by Dan's standards... and that our GM is ahead of the curve. 

[Bradysburns]

On 4/16/2017 at 0:40 PM, TradeAngelos said:

Truest words ever spoken. 

This team is run like a business first, baseball team second. Pete can't sell a bunch of latin players no one knows or cares about. So he will pocket that money every time. 

 

I wonder about this thesis. It would require me to believe that Peter is fretting over amateur player contracts that might cost him a million here or there. I suspect he worries about mega contracts and leaves the farm strategy to his minions. 

[Ohfan67]

I wish the Orioles' minor league system was ranked higher by the rating systems. I wish the Orioles minor league team was stocked with Wieters like prospects at every position (Wieters the prospect, remember that guy?). 

 

But, in the end it's about results at the major league level. DD's record with the Orioles is incredibly good. The Orioles have won way more games than any poster expected when he was hired. And the majority, maybe even the vast majority, of WAR has come from players that the Orioles drafted and developed or acquired for players that they drafted and developed. What more do fans reasonably want from a minor league system? We can complain about a potential future full of gloom and doom.  Baseball  future, however, is always surprising. Mancini may be the real deal. Mullins may be something. And maybe DD and Buck are not totally full of it when they disagree with baseball America writers and the like. But in the meantime, I would much rather have the Orioles team and minor leagues than say Atlantas team and their international prospects. Win baby, win. 

[Ohfan67]

P.s.  There are many moves made and not made that I disagree with, by the way. I'm not advocating orange colored glasses. But the results on the field are undeniable. The Orioles have been a far better team than almost everyone including most fans predicted and home grown talent has played a huge direct and indirect role in that success. IMO, that is ultimately what is important. Not BA rankings or where the talent comes from. 

[sportsfan8703]

On 4/16/2017 at 9:13 AM, Can_of_corn said:

I evidently wasn't anywhere near as specific as I should have been.

Yes your three examples are solid, but they were all free agents correct?

Sorry I was not clear that I was talking specifically about deals with other teams.  Trading non-prospects, cash, international slots for players.

Dan has done a very solid job with marginal folks on the open market.

Chris Lee from the Astros. We will have three option years with him as a reliever at least. 

[Frobby]

Quote

Dan Duquette, the team's executive vice-president of baseball operations, said the lack of spending on international amateurs is an ownership decision.

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/notes-baltimore-orioles-need-farm-system-to-develop-gems-041817

[Ohfan67]

On 4/15/2017 at 0:30 PM, hoosiers said:

The overall success of the Orioles has been primarily related to Manny Machado starting his career off in HoF fashion with credit to Britton, Tillman, Jones, Hardy, Davis, Schoop, Gausman and some others (O'Day, Wieters, Chen, etc).  DD has made a couple of shrewd moves with Cruz and Trumbo as well.  Otherwise, the rest of the organizational talent is simply sub-par all around. 

I don't get this. The core of the team was either drafted/signed and developed by the Orioles or attained via a trade involving players the Orioles drafted/signed and developed. Do the Orioles get zero credit for the good things that have happened and all the blame for the bad things? Seems like an obvious double standard.

On 4/15/2017 at 0:30 PM, hoosiers said:

The Os have pissed away draft picks to shed relievers and sign third rate SPs and have watched as 95% of the other teams in baseball spend circles around us for YEARS.  So either pretty much every other team in baseball is throwing $ down the toilet internationally or the Os are wrong. 

Unscientifically, I opened up the 2017 Baseball America Prospect Handbook and found the following:

Ariz - Four of top five prospects are international signs

Atlanta - 3 of top 7 - all three rated over 60 by BA

Balt- Reyes - 8th ranked prospect is our first international signing - rated 55

Bos - 3 of top 8 even after the winter trades

ChiCubs - 3 of top 8

ChiSox - 3 of top 8 - all three were signed by other teams.  ChiSox are poor international player.

It is truly pathetic to not participate internationally on a scale that would make the Os a middle of the road player.  So many teams have found the investment internationally to be worthwhile that they are paying 100% penalties on oversigning AND forfeiting international signings over a certain amount for two years! 

DD might be the most ignorant GM in the game if the Baseball America folks know more than he does internationally.  Otherwise, he appears to have failed to convince his owner of an appropriate international spend that 90+% of other owners understand.  And DD has pissed enough resources away on guys like Everth Cabrera ($ that could have funded an entire international class) not to mention the failure to find $ in a payroll that has gone from $110M to where we are today.

Of course the Orioles PROSPECTS are not international signings. They are basically not participating in that talent pool. The list you posted is meaningless to evaluate the O's strategy (if you want to call it a strategy). It's really WAR generated by players directly or indirectly developed by the minor league system and you could argue cost per WAR (maybe). Frobby and others have posted comparison lists like that several times. The Orioles have not been as successful as some of their competition, but they are not pathetically bad either. And in terms of team wins per dollar the Orioles have done pretty well with DD and Buck. As you noted, DD has hit the jackpot with Cruz and a few others. 

 

[TradeAngelos]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/notes-baltimore-orioles-need-farm-system-to-develop-gems-041817

I for one am completely shocked by this revelation. Dan is an employee operating at the behest of ownership, and just can't do whatever the heck he wants to improve the team when spending (pennies) money is involved?? 

What Duquette has done the past 5 years is an absolute freaking miracle. Just wait til he is gone. I'm sure everyone will be singing Brady's praises as he "builds a team" and we win 70 games every year.

[foxfield]

On 4/15/2017 at 1:30 PM, hoosiers said:

The overall success of the Orioles has been primarily related to Manny Machado starting his career off in HoF fashion with credit to Britton, Tillman, Jones, Hardy, Davis, Schoop, Gausman and some others (O'Day, Wieters, Chen, etc).  DD has made a couple of shrewd moves with Cruz and Trumbo as well.  Otherwise, the rest of the organizational talent is simply sub-par all around. 

The Os have pissed away draft picks to shed relievers and sign third rate SPs and have watched as 95% of the other teams in baseball spend circles around us for YEARS.  So either pretty much every other team in baseball is throwing $ down the toilet internationally or the Os are wrong. 

Unscientifically, I opened up the 2017 Baseball America Prospect Handbook and found the following:

Ariz - Four of top five prospects are international signs

Atlanta - 3 of top 7 - all three rated over 60 by BA

Balt- Reyes - 8th ranked prospect is our first international signing - rated 55

Bos - 3 of top 8 even after the winter trades

ChiCubs - 3 of top 8

ChiSox - 3 of top 8 - all three were signed by other teams.  ChiSox are poor international player.

It is truly pathetic to not participate internationally on a scale that would make the Os a middle of the road player.  So many teams have found the investment internationally to be worthwhile that they are paying 100% penalties on oversigning AND forfeiting international signings over a certain amount for two years! 

DD might be the most ignorant GM in the game if the Baseball America folks know more than he does internationally.  Otherwise, he appears to have failed to convince his owner of an appropriate international spend that 90+% of other owners understand.  And DD has pissed enough resources away on guys like Everth Cabrera ($ that could have funded an entire international class) not to mention the failure to find $ in a payroll that has gone from $110M to where we are today.

I do not want or mean to sound condescending in any way.  You and others make some very strong statements based on a set of facts that are not in dispute:  1)  The Orioles do not have the best minor league system by virtually every analysis.  2)  The Orioles do not participate in the International signing system in a meaningful way.  I personally would live to see the O's on many of the international players too.

 

However, like the writer of the article above you (and others) make some pretty big leaps and assessments based on those two facts.  Not only do I think those assessments are incorrect they are largely and irrefutably false.

1)  The overall success of the Orioles has been primarily related to Manny Machado starting his career off in HoF fashion with credit to Britton, Tillman, Jones, Hardy, Davis, Schoop, Gausman and some others (O'Day, Wieters, Chen, etc). 

The Orioles success is directly attributable to Dan Duquette and Buck Showalter.  The players that are here are here because they want them.  People want to attribute success to drafts or trades that occurred prior to the arrival of DD or Buck.  This is fine in terms of assessing what they inherited, but the roster and franchise when Buck and then DD arrived was the worst in the game.  And it had been for more than a decade.  Neither of these men are Gods, neither of them are infallible, but any legitimate conversation about the success of the Orioles starts here and then expands.

2)  The Os have pissed away draft picks to shed relievers and sign third rate SPs and have watched as 95% of the other teams in baseball spend circles around us for YEARS. 

I believe you are speaking ONLY of international signings here and IF that is the case again, you are stating a fact.  But the Orioles have been without a doubt, creative in staying successful.  They use the 40 man roster in ways that are mind numbing at times.  They use picks and cash like small poker chips.  And many would agree, that it seems to be extending a window, but question if it can be beneficial long term.  Your statement above, if you really believed it, would have to be followed by something like....and yet somehow we have been one of the best teams in baseball for YEARS.  So, again, here I am not disagreeing with point, just maybe tone.  I would add, that my opinion is that after 5 years of being one of the best, I'd like to see us take a step forward.  Make a deep run.  Win a WS.  Of course you have to be in it to win it as they say.

3)  It is truly pathetic to not participate internationally on a scale that would make the Os a middle of the road player.

You do not want the Orioles to be middle of the road.  Neither do I.  There are no runs provided to the team or wins allotted based on participation in the international draft.  Nor is that the only way to acquire international players.  I won't say that point above it is pathetic because it is merely your opinion which is valid, even if stated hyperbolically.  I will simply say this, IF the Orioles were to some how miraculously win the 2017 World Series.  I do not think their use or non use of the international draft would matter much.

4)  DD might be the most ignorant GM in the game if the Baseball America folks know more than he does internationally. 

Again, trying to be respectful of a different view, but hyperbole doesn't excuse this statement.  It is ignorant, more importantly, it is lazy.  DD is the worst GM in baseball, PA the worst owner, Buck sucks....This simply isn't close to true or close to possible.  The obvious question to ask here, is this:

Given the obvious ignorance of the Orioles GM, and the fact that he has consistently wasted assets on third rate players, what must the 95% of the league GM's do to lift their level of success to his?