Attendance 2019

[Frobby]

25 minutes ago, atomic said:

There are 7 mlb teams with lower attendance than the Orioles.  4 of those teams appear to be tanking like the Orioles.  No suprise that if you aren't making an effort to win games that people aren't going to pay to watch you.  

There are plenty of people with money in Baltimore.  

True.    More concerning to me is the attendance in 2016, and even 2014.    Until proven otherwise, this team can’t draw 2.5 mm even in a division title year anymore.   They might not be able to top 2.2 mm, based on 2016 when we were in the divisional race into September and clinched a wild card spot on the final day of the season.   

[atomic]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

True.    More concerning to me is the attendance in 2016, and even 2014.    Until proven otherwise, this team can’t draw 2.5 mm even in a division title year anymore.   They might not be able to top 2.2 mm, based on 2016 when we were in the divisional race into September and clinched a wild card spot on the final day of the season.   

They were 13th in attendance in 2014 right behind the Nationals. I would say 2016 was effected by the riots.  People will forget about the riots over time.  They need to be good again to draw.  But I think attendance in baseball has already peaked.  The Phillies were first in attendance in 2011 and 24th in attendance in 2017.  People like a winner.  

 

[Aglets]

15 minutes ago, atomic said:

They were 13th in attendance in 2014 right behind the Nationals. I would say 2016 was effected by the riots.  People will forget about the riots over time.  They need to be good again to draw.  But I think attendance in baseball has already peaked.  The Phillies were first in attendance in 2011 and 24th in attendance in 2017.  People like a winner.  

 

And now that Philly is relevant again (and paid a gazillion dollars for Harper) they are up to 4th in attendance.  Not all markets are created equal though, we've seen that Tampa's attendance seems to be mostly independent of how they perform.    I'm sure when we are good again we can get back to 30,000 per game like in 2014.....maybe with some sustained success we can do even better.

[theocean]

14 minutes ago, Aglets said:

And now that Philly is relevant again (and paid a gazillion dollars for Harper) they are up to 4th in attendance.  Not all markets are created equal though, we've seen that Tampa's attendance seems to be mostly independent of how they perform.    I'm sure when we are good again we can get back to 30,000 per game like in 2014.....maybe with some sustained success we can do even better.

Agreed - every market is different. I think large market teams can see bigger fluctuations in attendance based on winning because they simply have more people. The Philly Metro Area has 6.1 million people. Baltimore has 2.8 million. That's a lot more people who can jump on the bandwagon and fill a stadium.

Smaller market teams are going to have a limit to how many fans they can bring in unless they really establish a culture of success that creates and fosters diehard fans. Take St. Louis, for example - 2.8 million people in the metro area, just like Baltimore. But, the Cardinals are usually always in the top of attendance. The difference is the Cardinals are usually good and the Orioles are usually putting butt rosters on the field.

That's why I get a bit frustrated when people flippantly post a picture of Minute Maid Park during the playoffs anytime someone worries about the attendance. If this rebuild is really painful, the O's might have trouble bringing people to Camden Yards when they are winning again because that fanbase just isn't there. They don't have the luxury of the big populations of Philly or Houston or Chicago.

[atomic]

16 minutes ago, theocean said:

Agreed - every market is different. I think large market teams can see bigger fluctuations in attendance based on winning because they simply have more people. The Philly Metro Area has 6.1 million people. Baltimore has 2.8 million. That's a lot more people who can jump on the bandwagon and fill a stadium.

Smaller market teams are going to have a limit to how many fans they can bring in unless they really establish a culture of success that creates and fosters diehard fans. Take St. Louis, for example - 2.8 million people in the metro area, just like Baltimore. But, the Cardinals are usually always in the top of attendance. The difference is the Cardinals are usually good and the Orioles are usually putting butt rosters on the field.

That's why I get a bit frustrated when people flippantly post a picture of Minute Maid Park during the playoffs anytime someone worries about the attendance. If this rebuild is really painful, the O's might have trouble bringing people to Camden Yards when they are winning again because that fanbase just isn't there. They don't have the luxury of the big populations of Philly or Houston or Chicago.

Philadelphia also has an NBA and NHL team to compete against.  

[jtschrei]

I mean. As long as the city loses population, then attendance is going to stink no matter how good we are. There is no bigger fan of Baltimore than me. I grew up in the city. I cringe whenever I read posters talk about how dangerous it is around the ballpark. Don't get me wrong, I believe you always need to watch your back in Baltimore. I just think some it gets blown out of proportion. 

Anyway, bottom line. Until the city "comes back", then attendance will be poor. Hopefully Port Covington will help. There are signs of hope in the long-term outlook!

[Going Underground]

2 minutes ago, jtschrei said:

I mean. As long as the city loses population, then attendance is going to stink no matter how good we are. There is no bigger fan of Baltimore than me. I grew up in the city. I cringe whenever I read posters talk about how dangerous it is around the ballpark. Don't get me wrong, I believe you always need to watch your back in Baltimore. I just think some it gets blown out of proportion. 

Anyway, bottom line. Until the city "comes back", then attendance will be poor. Hopefully Port Covington will help. There are signs of hope in the long-term outlook!

But most of the fans come from the suburbs  The millenials from Locust Point,Woodberry,Federal Hill and Canton are not flocking to the stadium.

[jtschrei]

2 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

But most of the fans come from the suburbs  The millenials from Locust Point,Woodberry,Federal Hill and Canton are not flocking to the stadium.

True. Don't suburban fans want to come to a place that's nice and fun? They don't want to see addicts on every corner panhandling and trash in the gutter. The city has to "come back" to get the suburban fans too. 

I wonder if the casino has hurt or helped attendance? 

[foxfield]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

True.    More concerning to me is the attendance in 2016, and even 2014.    Until proven otherwise, this team can’t draw 2.5 mm even in a division title year anymore.   They might not be able to top 2.2 mm, based on 2016 when we were in the divisional race into September and clinched a wild card spot on the final day of the season.   

This.

The Orioles attendance will stink in 2019.  That will largely reflect the rebuild and the ugliness that ensues.  But Frobby's point regarding the difficulty in increasing attendance in 2014 and 2016 leave questions that are still unanswered.

Did fans anticipate that the Orioles had already peaked and were beyond their actual window?  Or has the experience of being in Baltimore become a factor?

I think all of these things come in to play and I think ownership, can use the rebuild as a way to rebrand the City.  This is not only important for the Orioles, but I think regardless of whether you believe Baltimore is less safe (I have had no bad experiences) important for the City.  And the Orioles clearly have a stake in that....

Of course, rebuilding a baseball team is pretty difficult and the Orioles no doubt have their hands full without entering the politics of keeping Baltimore a proud and welcoming venue for fans.

[atomic]

Opening kids day was packed with kids. 

56 minutes ago, foxfield said:

This.

The Orioles attendance will stink in 2019.  That will largely reflect the rebuild and the ugliness that ensues.  But Frobby's point regarding the difficulty in increasing attendance in 2014 and 2016 leave questions that are still unanswered.

 Did fans anticipate that the Orioles had already peaked and were beyond their actual window?  Or has the experience of being in Baltimore become a factor?

 I think all of these things come in to play and I think ownership, can use the rebuild as a way to rebrand the City.  This is not only important for the Orioles, but I think regardless of whether you believe Baltimore is less safe (I have had no bad experiences) important for the City.  And the Orioles clearly have a stake in that....

 Of course, rebuilding a baseball team is pretty difficult and the Orioles no doubt have their hands full without entering the politics of keeping Baltimore a proud and welcoming venue for fans.

Come on of course Baltimore City is less safe than most places in the world.  That is a given.  I am not sure why people want to sugar coat the violence/crime in the city.  

[spiritof66]

3 hours ago, atomic said:

There are 7 mlb teams with lower attendance than the Orioles.  4 of those teams appear to be tanking like the Orioles.  No suprise that if you aren't making an effort to win games that people aren't going to pay to watch you.  

There are plenty of people with money in Baltimore.  

Every big city has lots of wealthy people. But I'm confident there are a whole lot more of them in the New York, LA, Chicago, Boston, SF Bay, Houston, Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami and Washington metro areas. That's probably true of the Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Diego, Denver and Detroit areas as well.

One crude measure of the wealth of the team's fan base (including "wealth" in the form of large service firms that are season ticket candidates) is how much a team extracts from its fans in ticket prices and concession sales. According to the Forbes numbers for, the NYYs had revenues at the ballpark of about $82 for each ticket they sold in 2018, followed by the RS at $76. The Orioles and BJs were both at $27, and the Rays at $23.

While there are other factors that affect ticket prices, I have looked at these numbers (revenue per ticket sold) historically, and in the short term they don't vary that much with the onfield performance of the team. I was running those numbers as part of a larger team-by-team analysis this off-season, which I'll share here if I ever finish it.

[foxfield]

6 minutes ago, atomic said:

Opening kids day was packed with kids. 

Come on of course Baltimore City is less safe than most places in the world.  That is a given.  I am not sure why people want to sugar coat the violence/crime in the city.  

Sugar coating?  I did no such thing.  I believe I said regardless of where readers here believe the city lies, the Orioles have an obvious stake in seeing that the venue is safe and provides a nurturing experience for all fans.  And yes, regardless of ones opinions the Orioles are the only team in US professional sports to hold a contest with no fans so that the games could be played safely.  I also said, that I have never felt unsafe at the complex.

Baltimore is less safe than most places in the world?  Seriously?  I won't slam any other city, US or otherwise that has issues with violence.  But saying that Baltimore is among the most dangerous places in the world, is essentially forfeiting the opportunity to have any type of civil and honest discussion.  

[atomic]

5 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

Every big city has lots of wealthy people. But I'm confident there are a whole lot more of them in the New York, LA, Chicago, Boston, SF Bay, Houston, Seattle, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami and Washington metro areas. That's probably true of the Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Diego, Denver and Detroit areas as well.

One crude measure of the wealth of the team's fan base (including "wealth" in the form of large service firms that are season ticket candidates) is how much a team extracts from its fans in ticket prices and concession sales. According to the Forbes numbers for, the NYYs had revenues at the ballpark of about $82 for each ticket they sold in 2018, followed by the RS at $76. The Orioles and BJs were both at $27, and the Rays at $23.

 While there are other factors that affect ticket prices, I have looked at these numbers (revenue per ticket sold) historically, and in the short term they don't vary that much with the onfield performance of the team. I was running those numbers as part of a larger team-by-team analysis this off-season, which I'll share here if I ever finish it.

NYC and San Fransisco may be true but Maryland has highest percentage of millionaires in the country and has the highest median income. I think you are short changing the area.  Everyone I know makes a six figure salary.  In general people in this area have plenty of money. Whether they choose to spend it on a baseball game is another story. With tons of school teachers making six figure salaries in baltimore city your comment is bordering on the absurd.

 

[atomic]

6 minutes ago, foxfield said:

Sugar coating?  I did no such thing.  I believe I said regardless of where readers here believe the city lies, the Orioles have an obvious stake in seeing that the venue is safe and provides a nurturing experience for all fans.  And yes, regardless of ones opinions the Orioles are the only team in US professional sports to hold a contest with no fans so that the games could be played safely.  I also said, that I have never felt unsafe at the complex.

 Baltimore is less safe than most places in the world?  Seriously?  I won't slam any other city, US or otherwise that has issues with violence.  But saying that Baltimore is among the most dangerous places in the world, is essentially forfeiting the opportunity to have any type of civil and honest discussion.  

Like I said you are sugar coating it.  Look at murder rates for cities around the world. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-violent-cities-in-the-world-in-2018-2019-3#48-teresina-brazil-had-3761-homicides-per-100000-residents-3

 

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, jtschrei said:

True. Don't suburban fans want to come to a place that's nice and fun? They don't want to see addicts on every corner panhandling and trash in the gutter. The city has to "come back" to get the suburban fans too. 

I wonder if the casino has hurt or helped attendance? 

Maybe the Baltimore City government can start getting cleaned up now that Mayor Pugh's home was searched by the FBI this morning. But I'm guessing it won't, I think the state has to step in if Baltimore is to ever really get fixed. The city government left to it's own devices will always remain corrupt.