Can Means become the Orioles’ version of Kuechel?

[Just Regular]

39 minutes ago, Philip said:

An article in the Dallas news this morning went into great detail about Mike Minor And his trade value, which has only gone up. The article stated that after Keuchel and Bumgarner, Minor Is the most valuable trade piece. Means did very well last night. He has very little track record, but he does have some legitimate value. I actually think the Rangers themselves Would like to try and get him. They are on the fringe of contention, they need pitching in the worst way(They are promoting a guy from AA to start on Saturday) And they are the kind of team who would probably rather go for it than sell off. I don’t know anything about their farm, but I bet they’d be interested in John.

I think that focus is because they are expected to sell Minor.  The Rangers have gotten themselves into a little bit of a pickle by winning too much so far this year.  I think their overall strategy is rebuild like us, but they are opening a new stadium next year and they signed a few veterans to try and keep appearances respectable.  Then Gallo goes all MVP, Choo turns back the clock, and Minor pitches like a legit Cy Young downballot guy - the casual fanbase will have to be sold on the white flag trades I still think are coming next month, despite them holding a wildcard position today.

The Rangers surprise success is a little break for Elias, perhaps momentarily keeping one obvious seller out of the marketplace as front offices start transitioning from draft season to trade season.

[Natty]

If Means had pitched 1 more inning he would be listed in the top 10 pitchers in MLB  at ERA. 

[HowAboutThat]

13 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

I think that focus is because they are expected to sell Minor.  The Rangers have gotten themselves into a little bit of a pickle by winning too much so far this year.  I think their overall strategy is rebuild like us, but they are opening a new stadium next year and they signed a few veterans to try and keep appearances respectable.  Then Gallo goes all MVP, Choo turns back the clock, and Minor pitches like a legit Cy Young downballot guy - the casual fanbase will have to be sold on the white flag trades I still think are coming next month, despite them holding a wildcard position today.

The Rangers surprise success is a little break for Elias, perhaps momentarily keeping one obvious seller out of the marketplace as front offices start transitioning from draft season to trade season.

That’s a very good point and I’m inclined to agree.  The Rangers are in that horrible gray area between obvious seller and obvious buyer. I don’t know how good their draft was this year, but their farm system is in pretty bad shape, and the prudent thing would be to sell high on minor, but it remains to be seen what they will do.

However if they do decide to go for it, Means would be a Legitimate target. He doesn’t have much value yet but he does have some, and each team would be taking a gamble on his future success or failure.

[BohKnowsBmore]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

That’s a very good point and I’m inclined to agree.  The Rangers are in that horrible gray area between obvious seller and obvious buyer. I don’t know how good their draft was this year, but their farm system is in pretty bad shape, and the prudent thing would be to sell high on minor, but it remains to be seen what they will do.

However if they do decide to go for it, Means would be a Legitimate target. He doesn’t have much value yet but he does have some, and each team would be taking a gamble on his future success or failure.

I think too many teams will be wait-and-see with Means for it to make sense for the O's to trade him.  Particularly because they would be trading a guy with 6 years of control for other unproven guys with clocks yet to start.  If he keeps anything near this performance up, he will be incredibly valuable at this time next year (unless the team decides that he's a part of the next contender, that is).

[BohKnowsBmore]

2 minutes ago, Cy Bundy said:

That surprises me. I watched every Towers start & I never understood how he got anyone out, I never thought he’d have any sustained success. Means looks different to me, more velocity & a much better secondary pitch than anything Towers had. Means makes people look uncomfortable, Towers had people jumping the batting order to get up again before he was pulled. 

Every time I see a 430ft HR I picture Josh Towers pointing up, that was hilarious.

Josh Towers's K/9 makes Means look like Randy Johnson.

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Cy Bundy said:

That surprises me. I watched every Towers start & I never understood how he got anyone out, I never thought he’d have any sustained success. Means looks different to me, more velocity & a much better secondary pitch than anything Towers had. Means makes people look uncomfortable, Towers had people jumping the batting order to get up again before he was pulled. 

Every time I see a 430ft HR I picture Josh Towers pointing up, that was hilarious.

Other than the superficial facts that they both got off to good starts and they both liked to work high in the strike zone, they are not that similar.   In his first 12 games (8 starts), Towers threw 65 IP to a 2.22 ERA.   But, he only struck out 23 batters (3.2 K/9), though he also was very stingy with walks (1.1 BB/9) and really did seem to have plus command of his pitches.    Means through 14 games (10 starts) has thrown 60.2 innings to a 2.67 ERA, with 7.4 K/9 and 2.4 BB/9.    His stuff is harder to hit, but his command is just so-so IMO.   I’ve been amazed at how batters will swing through his high changeups even when he’s missed his spot by a considerable margin.

Means already has exceeded my expectations for him, and perhaps he’ll go on to be a solid rotation piece.   I do think that batters will adjust to that changeup to a degree eventually, and his numbers will come back to earth a bit.    It’s just a matter of how far.   

[DrungoHazewood]

13 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

I think their overall strategy is rebuild like us, but they are opening a new stadium next year and they signed a few veterans to try and keep appearances respectable. 

Wait... what?  Sorry to derail, but something is wrong when taxpayers are regularly replacing reasonably state-of-the-art 20 or 25-year-old stadiums.  The Rangers' current park is newer than OPACY, and will now be reconfigured for the new XFL. Which I'm sure will last at least a full season before going bankrupt.

[Lucky_13]

19 minutes ago, Cy Bundy said:

I can’t see any team trading anything for Means at this point, but if he has a dominant stretch through the AS break that could change ... and if he does, we will need a John Means ourselves, we don’t have many arms getting people out consistently. Cheap outs, I’m holding on to Means rather than getting prospects outside of the top 100 for him. Jmo.

Agreed I don't really see the point in trading Means either.  Most of the team's high impact arms are at Delmarva right now.  I guess we could see Wells or Lowther next season but assuming Bundy and Cashner are traded at the deadline someone needs to cheaply eat innings and Means does that and is effective doing it.  

[Just Regular]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Wait... what?  Sorry to derail, but something is wrong when taxpayers are regularly replacing reasonably state-of-the-art 20 or 25-year-old stadiums.  The Rangers' current park is newer than OPACY, and will now be reconfigured for the new XFL. Which I'm sure will last at least a full season before going bankrupt.

I know, right - it is a marker of my middle age to now remember stadiums being born and dying.  I think the Braves have beaten the Rangers to the "two since Camden Yards" opened trick.

[Mayor McCheese]

I have not seen Means pitch that much this year but I noticed last night he kept rubbing his 2 fingers inside his glove, does he usually do that!?

[Can_of_corn]

19 minutes ago, Mayor McCheese said:

I have not seen Means pitch that much this year but I noticed last night he kept rubbing his 2 fingers inside his glove, does he usually do that!?

Probably loading up the ball.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, OrioleDog said:

I know, right - it is a marker of my middle age to now remember stadiums being born and dying.  I think the Braves have beaten the Rangers to the "two since Camden Yards" opened trick.

If teams had some skin in the game this would never happen.  In other countries  where taxpayers usually have nothing to do with stadiums you'll keep one for a century, just doing renovations and upgrades.  I think the US is pretty unusual in throwing away $750M, 50,000 seat sports arenas every 20 years.  Tottenham Hotspur, my English football team, was in White Hart Lane from 1899-2017.  And when they finally built a new one next door they paid for it!  The resulting overruns and delays meant they couldn't sign any free agents for a full year.

When it's somebody else's money you just don't care to be responsible.

[Ohfan67]

25 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If teams had some skin in the game this would never happen.  In other countries  where taxpayers usually have nothing to do with stadiums you'll keep one for a century, just doing renovations and upgrades.  I think the US is pretty unusual in throwing away $750M, 50,000 seat sports arenas every 20 years.  Tottenham Hotspur, my English football team, was in White Hart Lane from 1899-2017.  And when they finally built a new one next door they paid for it!  The resulting overruns and delays meant they couldn't sign any free agents for a full year.

When it's somebody else's money you just don't care to be responsible.

I hear you. I basically totally agree with you, but there are two kinda, sorta things in favor of the new Rangers stadium. First, the team is paying for about half of the stadium. Second, the new stadium will have a retractable roof. It is unbelievably hot in the "old" stadium July - September with August being particularly brutal. We're talking game time temperatures for night games at around 100F in the stadium. I guess a third thing is that the taxpayers got to vote on all or at least most of the taxpayer provided money and they approved. The Rangers douche bag play was that they forced the issue with Arlington by threatening a move to within the city limits of Dallas. 

[DrungoHazewood]

2 hours ago, Ohfan67 said:

I hear you. I basically totally agree with you, but there are two kinda, sorta things in favor of the new Rangers stadium. First, the team is paying for about half of the stadium. Second, the new stadium will have a retractable roof. It is unbelievably hot in the "old" stadium July - September with August being particularly brutal. We're talking game time temperatures for night games at around 100F in the stadium. I guess a third thing is that the taxpayers got to vote on all or at least most of the taxpayer provided money and they approved. The Rangers douche bag play was that they forced the issue with Arlington by threatening a move to within the city limits of Dallas.

Another benefit of an open league with promotion/relegation: Everyone already has a team at some level.  No one ever moves (or almost no one - there's Milton Keynes Dons as the exception to prove the rule).  So there's no blackmailing cities and taxpayers with threats of leaving.

[Babkins]

7 hours ago, Cy Bundy said:

That surprises me. I watched every Towers start & I never understood how he got anyone out, I never thought he’d have any sustained success. Means looks different to me, more velocity & a much better secondary pitch than anything Towers had. Means makes people look uncomfortable, Towers had people jumping the batting order to get up again before he was pulled. 

Every time I see a 430ft HR I picture Josh Towers pointing up, that was hilarious.

I was at that game. May 12, 2001; my first time at Yankee Stadium. B. J. Ryan tossed me a foul ball during batting practice, and when Jason Johnson walked past me along the third base line, I asked him, “Hey, Johnson, you starting?” And he replied, “Yeah.”

It was the best conversation I’ve ever had with a Major League Baseball player.

Ted Lilly went for the Yanks. Yankees fans were as gracious in victory as one might expect.

Anyway, I can see the Means-Bergesen comparisons and the Means-Towers comparisons, at least in terms of how this all feels so far. I hope the Means-Keuchel comparisons are most apt in terms of results. Rooting for the guy.

P. S. I just looked up Brad Bergesen on Baseball Reference. Would you believe he’s only 33 years old? Seems like he pitched for us a hundred years ago. He had a decent little swan song in Arizona in 2012, putting up career bests in K/9 and WHIP in 29.2 relief innings. And then he disappeared and was no more.