BJ Surhoff Is Angry

[wildcard]

I have a  hard time criticizing Elias for how he handles minor league player instruction in view of the O's minor league teams performance this season.

[7Mo]

12 minutes ago, Philip said:

I think rather it comes across as the company denying him the opportunity to show whether he can do the new job, and not even explaining that the job was changing. The job is changing, yes, but there was no ongoing explanation of new goals or parameters or methods. He didn’t say whether he had reached out( which means he probably didn’t) but I think that would have been fruitless.

The new king’s First job is to eliminate all the folks loyal to the old king...which is a bit hard on those who were willing to work with the new one.

I disagree but that's not a big deal. We look at how it should be done differently.

I don't think it has anything to do with "loyal to the old king". I think it's all about folks who will execute the way Elias envisions, whether they were there previously or not. 

Surhoff seems pretty confident about how he does things. I doubt he's interesting in being told a different way. And I understand that you don't agree.

[Philip]

13 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I have a  hard time criticizing Elias for how he handles minor league player instruction in view of the O's minor league teams performance this season.

I don’t disagree, but bear in mind when the purge occurred, which was near the end of the minor league season. At least on the surface, it looks as if he rewarded a very good job from all involved with termination

[Philip]

Just now, John Welch said:

I disagree but that's not a big deal. We look at how it should be done differently.

I don't think it has anything to do with "loyal to the old king". I think it's all about folks who will execute the way Elias envisions, whether they were there previously or not. 

Surhoff seems pretty confident about how he does things. I doubt he's interesting in being told a different way. And I understand that you don't agree.

 No I think you’re misunderstanding where we disagree. Based on his own statements I think he was not given any kind of communication about his job changing, or his job performance, until he was actually dismissed. He complained that he wasn’t given the opportunity to adapt. I think he has a legitimate beef on that point.

thats where the Regnal Loyalty thing comes in,  because it appears that Mike did not care whether he could adapt or not, he wanted to replace him with his own people.

[Philip]

5 minutes ago, John Welch said:

I disagree but that's not a big deal. We look at how it should be done differently.

I don't think it has anything to do with "loyal to the old king". I think it's all about folks who will execute the way Elias envisions, whether they were there previously or not. 

Surhoff seems pretty confident about how he does things. I doubt he's interesting in being told a different way. And I understand that you don't agree.

PS. It is also possible that the position itself is being completely eliminated and will not be replaced at all.

[CallMeBrooksie]

Just now, Philip said:

PS. It is also possible that the position itself is being completely eliminated and will not be replaced at all.

The impression I get is that Surhoff had the kind of ambiguous consultancy job title that organizations typically get rid of first doing a re-org. 

Could be wrong, but I'm not too familiar with that job title. Regardless, I am sad that he's getting the boot. Surhoff is someone who clearly loves the Orioles organization and whose heart will always be in Baltimore. I'll never forget his emotional press conference upon being traded to the Braves. Men like Surhoff are few and far between for a franchise with the O's recent history.

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Surhoff comes off like the grumpy Old Guard of scouts as portrayed in the Moneyball film. I've always liked Surhoff, but I found it humorous.

As a younger fan who's never rooted for a championship caliber O's team, I've grown to lament the endless pumping up and promotion of the great teams and players of Baltimore's distant past, with post-prime Cal being the only one I have any personal memories of. I'm mostly jealous that there are no moments that are seen worthy of celebration that feel like I can call my own. Only exception would be the streak, which barely feels like a baseball accomplishment to me as time goes by.

What I'm trying to get at is.. the Oriole way died a long time ago, and it feels way past due to me for the franchise to start anew and stop clutching so tightly to a past that almost feels like a taunt to those of us who can hardly imagine such a successful baseball club. I get that these promotions are the only thing that gets the aging Orioles fanbase to come out these days given the on field product... And I do think that the club's history is important and worth celebrating ... But it feels so refreshing to see this regime come in and show a commitment to doing things a completely new way. I'm ready for my own Oriole Way. 

2014 was as good a season as any of the distant past and they were certainly championship caliber in 2012 and 2014.  Winning the AL East by 12 games won’t happen very often in the lives of all Orioles fans.  And the Delmon ALCS bases loaded double was as epic a moment as any in Oriole history...maybe the loudest I have ever heard an Oriole crowd ever since I first started going to games in 1965. 

Zach Britton, Adam Jones, Chris Davis, JJ Hardy....great Orioles all. 

Yes, hopefully we will have more winning seasons and I am supportive of ME getting changes in place, but let’s not forget to give thanks for the very recent past too. 

 

[SteveA]

Jon Shepherd in Camden Depot insinuates in a Tweet that Surhoff has expressed "old-school" opposition to analytics dating back to when Duquette first started an anlytics department.

And in the Athletic article today, when asked if he thought he would be able to complexities of advanced, analytical approach to baseball, Surhoff said:  "Well, I"m not Bill Gates.  But I think I can pick up on stuff, when it comes to baseball, fairly quickly".

His choice of Bill Gates, a "computer guy" with no connection to baseball, probably gives an indication of his attitude towards some of the things that Elias is doing.

Bottom line is when someone is fired, they often can tell their side of the story to garner sympathy.   The team that fires them, however, often can't comment on a personnel decision for legal reasons, or they won't because even though Surhoff is criticizing them for the firing, they are too polite to publicly list what they believe Surhoff's shortcomings are.   So you will only ever hear one side of the story.

The other interesting thing is, the two players they quote in the article to defend Surhoff (Mancini and Hays) both note how they first disliked Surhoff the first year they worked with him, but they grew to appreciate the advice and guidance he gave.   Basically his two biggest character witnesses led with the fact that they initially didn't like him before they move on to defend him.

[CallMeBrooksie]

4 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

2014 was as good a season as any of the distant past and they were certainly championship caliber in 2012 and 2014.  Winning the AL East by 12 games won’t happen very often in the lives of all Orioles fans.  And the Delmon ALCS bases loaded double was as epic a moment as any in Oriole history...maybe the loudest I have ever heard an Oriole crowd ever since I first started going to games in 1965. 

Zach Britton, Adam Jones, Chris Davis, JJ Hardy....great Orioles all. 

Yes, hopefully we will have more winning seasons and I am supportive of ME getting changes in place, but let’s not forget to give thanks for the very recent past too. 

 

Great, great moment for me...  But you can't say it's "as good as any season of the distant past" with a straight face. You won't ever see a stadium promotion centered around that moment/season. And Delmon Young being a turd of a human being doesn't help either, as much as I love that moment still.

Maybe they were talented enough to win it all that year, but they were nearly swept in the ALCS. To me, that was a big letdown... Too big to call them "championship caliber".

[wildcard]

24 minutes ago, Philip said:

I don’t disagree, but bear in mind when the purge occurred, which was near the end of the minor league season. At least on the surface, it looks as if he rewarded a very good job from all involved with termination

Probably those that did a very good job were not terminated.  Was Alan Mills terminated?  Was Gary Kendall? Mike Griffin was re-ssigned as dsakflk

 

[waroriole]

54 minutes ago, Philip said:

Didn’t he specifically say in his interview that he wasn’t?

Plenty of disgruntled former employees would say the same, regardless of whether it’s true. People don’t like to be fired. 

[Philip]

13 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

2014 was as good a season as any of the distant past and they were certainly championship caliber in 2012 and 2014.  Winning the AL East by 12 games won’t happen very often in the lives of all Orioles fans.  And the Delmon ALCS bases loaded double was as epic a moment as any in Oriole history...maybe the loudest I have ever heard an Oriole crowd ever since I first started going to games in 1965. 

Zach Britton, Adam Jones, Chris Davis, JJ Hardy....great Orioles all. 

Yes, hopefully we will have more winning seasons and I am supportive of ME getting changes in place, but let’s not forget to give thanks for the very recent past too. 

 

I will never ever get tired of watching that play

[JimGinSP]

The Orioles have a long history of not handling dismissals well.   I remember the stories of Joe Altobelli wandering the halls of Memorial Stadium trying to find out if he still had a job.  Mike Flanagan seemingly was treated like the character Milton in the movie Office Space, never really given any explanations what was happening to his front office position.   Who knows, maybe Brady is being treated now like Flanagan was, no office, no locker in the clubhouse, no Asst. to the VP title..... don’t call us we’ll call you.

I will give credit to Mike Elias for being man enough to pick up the phone and call BJ Surhoff personally.   Look at the chain of command in any organization,  the person at the top of the pyramid is usually delegating that task or maybe even just FedEx’ing a letter to a part-time, contract employee saying that their contract was not being renewed.   I would say that personal phone call was Elias’ respect for “35 years of MLB”.    From the article it appears it was the first time Surhoff spoke with Elias since he was hired in November.   Whose fault is that?   By the way BJ,  people don’t call anymore they text,  since it appears you were never asked to drive out to East Nowhere Ohio to check out the next Mike Trout at a game at Sweet Baby Jesus HS,  you must have been at home all season. Were you watching every game?  As a successful left handed batter could you have texted Elias offering to help Chris Davis?   

Change is very hard for fans too,  we clamor for change but we cherish our history

                                       Would you rather this hangouters?

GM - Cal Ripken Jr.   AGM - Brady Anderson

Manager - Mike Bordick,  Bench Coach- BJ Surhoff 

1B Coach - Floyd Rayford,  3B Coach - Luis Matos

Pitching Coach- Mike Mussina,  Bullpen Coach-  Alan Mills (holdover, being groomed as the next Elrod)

Of course I’m not saying anyone but Bordick and Mills would have accepted these positions but would it really have been change?

No one said this was going to be easy but let’s stay the course

 

 

[Philip]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Probably those that did a very good job were not terminated.

 

Well we don’t know that, for lots of reasons, but there’s nothing unusual about getting rid of people merely because they are not your people.

[tntoriole]

3 minutes ago, CallMeBrooksie said:

Great, great moment for me...  But you can't say it's "as good as any season of the distant past" with a straight face. You won't ever see a stadium promotion centered around that moment/season. And Delmon Young being a turd of a human being doesn't help either, as much as I love that moment still.

Maybe they were talented enough to win it all that year, but they were nearly swept in the ALCS. To me, that was a big letdown... Too big to call them "championship caliber".

The fact that they were swept by the Royals is really irrelevant.  I was in Memorial Stadium in 1969 watching the only game the Os won as the best team perhaps in history was beaten and swept by the Mets and that same dynasty of a team was also beaten by the Pirates in 1971.   Were they not championship caliber?  Of course not.   Or other seasons...1973 and 1974 winning division titles but then losing in playoffs to the As both years or in 1980 where we win 100 games but no playoffs at all because only division winners at the time went to the postseason and we were 3 games behind the Yankees and went home...same way in 1982 after losing the last game of the season to the Brewers.   

2012 to 2014 had great Orioles players and performances...as good as many teams of the past...If you don’t think 2014 was just about as good a season as you will see as an Orioles fan , you may not be happy with whatever Elias and company come up with.    Winning a World Series is not the only definition of a great season or team.