Calling Elias incompetent is unfair

[atomic]

5 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I'm not sure why this move is such a surprise to you. This is the modal that Elias used in Houston. You burn it to the ground then rebuild with a strong foundation. The idea is build the team for sustained success. Whether or not we have Villar on the team next season isn't going to matter and it's not going to move the win/loss needed. He a complementary player, not a difference maker. Right now I'm operating under the assumption that the money saved by releasing Villar will be reinvested into other facets of the organization. The Orioles, even under Angelos, Sr., never had a problem spending; they had a problem spending the "right" way. Now if all this turns out to be a mandate to strip payroll before they move the team to Nashville then I'll be the first to say I was wrong. 

 

The Astros model is to steal signs to help batters and to sign a bunch of free agent pitchers. 

[Roll Tide]

7 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I'm not sure why this move is such a surprise to you. This is the modal that Elias used in Houston. You burn it to the ground then rebuild with a strong foundation. The idea is build the team for sustained success. Whether or not we have Villar on the team next season isn't going to matter and it's not going to move the win/loss needed. He a complementary player, not a difference maker. Right now I'm operating under the assumption that the money saved by releasing Villar will be reinvested into other facets of the organization. The Orioles, even under Angelos, Sr., never had a problem spending; they had a problem spending the "right" way. Now if all this turns out to be a mandate to strip payroll before they move the team to Nashville then I'll be the first to say I was wrong. 

 

It's a terrible move for three reasons...Read Tony's posts if you can see the reasoning 

1) Villar was a 4 WAR player and really you best player

2) your cutting him to save 3 million dollars in fees

3) You weren't able to get anything for him ( told cry the me about there was no market) 

4) Nontending talent doesn't nothing to help your team get closer to being competitive 

5) The money saved will be gobbled up as profit as opposed to paying him 1 more year and perhaps you get value for him due to another teams need.

Again, There was no downside to keeping him except money in the pockets of the owner. A paltry 3 million...... Which is probably is  equivalent to a $50,000 salary in the real world. 

Spending $3 million to keep Villar and hoping he produces 3+ WAR (which based on his age and history is 75% likely) this season and market demand increases is a better risk than getting zero,. 

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

That's not my point....my point is they don't sock away money to be used later. Our payroll was 80-100 million light in 2019. You will never see that money spent later. They may spend but they won't overspend by the money they are saving. 

 

What difference does that make?  You seem to agree that the O's will spent or even overspend when they are contenders.   So as long as they do that what difference does it make where the money comes from?

[Frobby]

34 minutes ago, atomic said:

The Astros model is to steal signs to help batters and to sign a bunch of free agent pitchers. 

Actually, they traded for Verlander, Cole and Greinke.    Using assets from their excellent farm system.   

[wildcard]

41 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

It's a terrible move for three reasons...Read Tony's posts if you can see the reasoning 

1) Villar was a 4 WAR player and really you best player

2) your cutting him to save 3 million dollars in fees

3) You weren't able to get anything for him ( told cry the me about there was no market) 

4) Nontending talent doesn't nothing to help your team get closer to being competitive 

5) The money saved will be gobbled up as profit as opposed to paying him 1 more year and perhaps you get value for him due to another teams need.

Again, There was no downside to keeping him except money in the pockets of the owner. A paltry 3 million...... Which is probably is  equivalent to a $50,000 salary in the real world. 

Spending $3 million to keep Villar and hoping he produces 3+ WAR (which based on his age and history is 75% likely) this season and market demand increases is a better risk than getting zero,. 

Villar made about 4.8m last year.  The projection is arbitration would be 10m.  That is 5m additional dollar not 3m.

I think its amazing that fans are in favor of additional hires for Analytics, Scouting and Player development.   That to   get the better people the O's probably have to pay up to get them.   That fans like expanding facilities in the DR and also like all the technology that is being purchased.   Fans like spending 8m for Rutschman plus more for other draftees. But the same fans don't want to pay for it.    This is happening at the same time the O's are not having a contending team which cuts attendance, concession and parking revenue.   

Its all just supposed to happen by magic.  Stick your fingers in your ears and go La-la-al-la.

[Roll Tide]

12 minutes ago, wildcard said:

What difference does that make?  You seem to agree that the O's will spent or even overspend when they are contenders.   So as long as they do that what difference does it make where the money comes from?

Overspend ? NO

The move and current philosophy suck.

Ive argued that Villar is perhaps the best player on the team. I've also said that they should extend him and have for more than a year.

Im okay with trading him for chips for later.

I think they could easily afford to pay him a 3 million raise if that is indeed what the arbitration process decided.

Im disgusted that these chose the cheap....lose more route as if this team isn't bad enough already.

There was no downside to delay the process by offering him arbitration and hoping for a market to develop out of need.

There is no reason to think he would be a 2.5 to 4 WAR player this coming season. He is after all in his prime.

By doing so you increase the odds of getting a return that greater than nothing.

The downside .... You sent $3 million extra that your owner can't stuff in his pocket never to be seen again.

I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this!

The OH poster community has been very fickle over the years.....Trust this, trust that, buy into the process.

Subtracting talent for zero return is not a smart business decision.

[Roll Tide]

15 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Actually, they traded for Verlander, Cole and Greinke.    Using assets from their excellent farm system.   

That doesn't account for $330 million dollars of mostly unused resources when they were terrible on purpose.

[weams]

19 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Actually, they traded for Verlander, Cole and Greinke.    Using assets from their excellent farm system.   

And taking on enormous salary to boot. 

[weams]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

That doesn't account for $330 million dollars of mostly unused resources when they were terrible on purpose.

Do they pay taxes?

[weams]

Just now, weams said:

Do they pay taxes?

If so and assuming your profits are accurate and not just a number, start at 240.

[Roll Tide]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Villar made about 4.8m last year.  The projection is arbitration would be 10m.  That is 5m additional dollar not 3m.

I think its amazing that fans are in favor of additional hires for Analytics, Scouting and Player development.   That to   get the better people the O's probably have to pay up to get them.   That fans like expanding facilities in the DR and also like all the technology that is being purchased.   But the same fans don't want to pay for it.    This is happening at the same time the O's are not having a contending team which cuts attendance, concession and parking revenue.   

Its all just supposed to happen by magic.  Stick your fingers in your ears and go La-la-al-la.

You my friend are brainwashed by the Orange Koolaid! 

None of what you mentioned above costed the organization the $80-$100 million saved on payroll this season. The stuff you mention costs Pennies on the dollar!

Thats not including the $100 million that will be saved/unused in 2020....Which includes the $5 million (see I used your number ) that they could've given a player that earned a raise. 

Most of the money will go on the profit ledger never to be seen again. 

But please ....continue to buy the company line!

[wildbillhiccup]

39 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

It's a terrible move for three reasons...Read Tony's posts if you can see the reasoning 

1) Villar was a 4 WAR player and really you best player

2) your cutting him to save 3 million dollars in fees

3) You weren't able to get anything for him ( told cry the me about there was no market) 

4) Nontending talent doesn't nothing to help your team get closer to being competitive 

5) The money saved will be gobbled up as profit as opposed to paying him 1 more year and perhaps you get value for him due to another teams need.

Again, There was no downside to keeping him except money in the pockets of the owner. A paltry 3 million...... Which is probably is  equivalent to a $50,000 salary in the real world. 

Spending $3 million to keep Villar and hoping he produces 3+ WAR (which based on his age and history is 75% likely) this season and market demand increases is a better risk than getting zero,. 

First off, you have no idea if that money will be reinvested back into other facets of the organization. And paying Villar would have been a waste of money. This team is going to lose with or without Villar. He has zero value on a team destined for last place (by design) in 2020. And until you show me one tangible rumor of a trade offer that was made for Villar you're not going to convince me that there was a market for him. Villar is not a good player and based on past performance there's a 50% chance he flops next year. Let someone else deal with that risk / headache. 

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

And taking on enormous salary to boot. 

It was calculated in their payroll figure. They received money back on those deals and its was posted earlier that they are spending what they should be...not overspending saved loot from losing on purpose 

2 minutes ago, weams said:

Do they pay taxes?

I'm sure that they buried as much as possible to hide it from Uncle Sam.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

And taking on enormous salary to boot. 

Like I said, the other teams have been helping pay for them.

Now if they sign Cole in the offseason...

[Roll Tide]

1 minute ago, wildbillhiccup said:

First off, you have no idea if that money will be reinvested back into other facets of the organization. And paying Villar would have been a waste of money. This team is going to lose with or without Villar. He has zero value on a team destined for last place (by design) in 2020. And until you show me one tangible rumor of a trade offer that was made for Villar you're not going to convince me that there was a market for him. Villar is not a good player and based on past performance there's a 50% chance he flops next year. Let someone else deal with that risk / headache. 

1) They will not reinvest the $80 million saved on payroll in 2019. Show me proof of even 50%(you cant ....see I can do it too)

2) No it wouldn't .... People pay money new to watch the team play. There is no harm in spending a few extra million to keep a talented player. 

His value is in WAR, giving the fans a decent product that they are paying for, and .....Plus a market could develop in 2020 due to underperformance or Injury (prove it won't ...see I did it again)!

3) "Villar is not a good player" This is just bull crap ! The guy produced a 4 WAR season, and also produced 3.9 and 2.7 in the last 4 years. 

When you make stupid statements you have zero credibility