Rank these ten pitchers (all time)

[HowAboutThat]

I remember Cone and Saberhagen being unbeatable. Hated facing either one. I’m surprised at how poorly Felix compares to these guys, but he was always electrifying. Aside from Cone, he was the only guy who always took the mound and made you expect a no hitter( and Cone threw one, too)

im not as familiar with the NL guys so I can’t do a ranking, but I’d put Felix above Saberhagen and equal to Cone and Pettite.

but sadly, I guess he’s a miss for the HOF.

[Moose Milligan]

I'd go...

 

Felix Hernandez

Orel Hershiser

David Cone 

Roy Owalt

Andy Pettitte

Bret Saberhagen

Mark Buehrle

Cole Hamels

Tim Hudson 

Chuck Finley

Based on nothing.

 

[LookinUp]

Great list. Hard for me to distinguish, but Hersheiser’s post season was especially magical, so I’d probably put him first.

Felix was electric. Pettitte was a cheater and got caught. Great friends with Clemens.

[DrungoHazewood]

16 hours ago, Frobby said:

Just thinking about King Felix’s place in the baseball pantheon.   How would you rank him compared to these other very good pitchers:

Felix Hernandez

Roy Owalt

Cole Hamels

Mark Buehrle

Orel Hershiser

David Cone 

Andy Pettitte

Chuck Finley

Tim Hudson 

Bret Saberhagen

 

Would it be a cop-out to say all of them are separated by less than the margin of error?   Pettitte is probably ahead by a nose, Saberhagen perhaps the best peak.  But Pettitte is the one who admitted to the PEDs, and Saberhagen alternated good and blah seasons.  Every one of them has a career value between 49-62 in Fangraphs and bb-ref WAR.  Peak seasons around 6-7 wins.

[DrungoHazewood]

By JAWS (which balances bb-ref peak and career WAR) they're all in the 64 (Cone) to 109 (Felix) range of all time starting pitchers.   80%+ of the pitchers above Cone are in the Hall, but below that things drop off.  The 70s have 2/10 in Cooperstown, the 80s just Koufax, the 90s only Grimes and Whitey, the 100s Dizzy and Eppa Rixey.

60s are 3/10, 50s six, and 40s seven.  The 30s are only 4/10, but that's because of three obscure 19th century guys and Verlander/Greinke/Kershaw who are all almost locks.

So most of this list is in the range where 20% of pitchers get in the Hall.  So they'll need a narrative or a champion.

[Sports Guy]

Lots of ways to look at these conversations.

Rankings solely to WAR:

1) Cone

2) Pettitte

3)Buehrle

4) Saberhagen

5) Hamels

6)Hudson and Finley

8 ) Hershiser

9) FHer

10) Oswalt 

ERA+:

1) Oswalt

2) Saberhagen

3) Hamels

4) Cone

5) Hudson

6) Buehrle/FHer/Pettitte

9) Finley

10) Hershiser

Wins:

1) Pettitte

2) Hudson

3) Buehrle

4) Hershiser

5) Finley

6) Cone

7) FHer

8 ) Saberhagen

9) Oswalt/Hamels

200 IP seasons:

1) Buehrle (14 straight and last season of career, he threw 198.2)

2) Pettitte

3) Hershiser

4) Cone/Hamels/Hudson/Finley

8 ) Oswalt/FHer

10) Saberhagen (he only had 4, everyone else was 7 or more)

These stats show the combo of performance, health and longevity.  There is a clear difference in terms of K rates.  Felix, Pettitte, Hamels and Cone had/have careeer K rates around 8.3, give or take (Hamels barely has the highest).  Oswalt is at 7.4 and Finley is at 7.3.  Everyone else is 6 or less, with Buehrle being the worse.  
 

The HR rates are about the same across the board.  K rates are similar with Cone and Finley being the outliers. (3.5+).  Everyone else is between 2-2.9.  Saberhagen is the only sub 2 BB rate guy.

Pettitte laps the field in terms of postseason success. Not only did he pitch a ton but he was also really good.  He is 4th all time in WPA.  Other guys, like Hershiser, have great success but not for nearly as many innings.  Hamels has always been a good postseason pitcher. Cone, Oswalt and Hudson were pretty good but not great.  Buehrle was mediocre in his overall SSS.  Finley and Saberhagen struggled.  Hernandez didn’t pitch in the postseason

Only Saberhagen has multiple CY awards. Felix, Cons and Hershiser are the only ones on the last that have one.  Oswalt had the most top 5 places with 5.  Felix, Orel, Pettitte and Cone had 4 each.  Hudson and Saberhagen had 3.  Hamels and Buehrle had 1 and Finley 0.

Peak is close between Oswalt and Cone.  Felix had the best seasons in terms of ErA+.  Saberhagen easily wins peak in terms of WAR but only for a few seasons.  Everyone else was pretty steady and had relatively similar peaks.  
 

You also have to take into account eras and ballparks (yes I know ERA+ Is supposed to do this but I don’t buy into it). Finley, Hershiser, Cone, Saberhagen pitched most, if not all, of their careers in a better pitchers environment than the rest.  
 

Most of them had pretty good ERAs and the FIPs were close.  Saberhagen had the best of both with Oswalt closely behind.
 

My overall rankings would be this:

1) Pettitte- his overall solid regular season numbers and his elite postseason performance give him the edge.  His ERA was one of the highest but I think everything else makes up for that.

2) Oswalt- excellent overall numbers.  Doesn’t have all the counting stats as others but arguably best peak, pitching in steroid era, etc...

3) Cone- underrated guy.  Walk rate is a bit high but rest of his numbers are really good.

4) Felix- Best multiple years in terms of ErA+.  Could be best pitcher on the list but the way the last few years have gone definitely hurts him in these discussions

5) Hershiser-  he gets dinged for poor K rates, playing in a good park and a good era to pitch in but he was still really good, very durable and was great in the postseason.
 

6) Saberhagen- Really good but durability and postseason issues keep him down.  Highest peak on terms of WAR (best seasons)

7) Hudson-  really good, underrated guy. Durable and won a lot of games.  Good numbers but K rate keeps him down.

8 ) Hamels-

9) Buerhle-  Definition of durable 

10) Finley-  good pitcher, good counting stats but falls short of everyone else imo.

[Moose Milligan]

37 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Would it be a cop-out 

Yes.  C'mon, rank em.

[Sports Guy]

It’s tough to rank these guys.  As Drungo said, they are all very close.  I’m good with the top 3 on how I ranked them.  But 4-7 could be interchangeable.

[LookinUp]

I personally ding Pettitte (huge) and Oswalt (association) for PEDs. I have no evidence on Oswalt except for the eye test of his entire team.

Hersheiser, Cone and Hamels can pitch for my contending team any day. 

But Felix does deserve a little bit of the Gayle Sayers treatment. It's similar to Hersheiser's amazing post season. Felix left an amazing impression. He affected the viewer. If the HoF or rankings was just about math, I might feel differently. 

[DrungoHazewood]

7 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Yes.  C'mon, rank em.

Saberhagen, Pettitte, Oswalt, Hudson, Hershiser, Hernandez, Hamels, Finley, Cone, Buerhle.

[Moose Milligan]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 

9) Saberhagen-  Really good but durability issues and postseason performance keep him down.

 

WS MVP in 1985.  Wasn't so good in other postseason appearances, but those came when he was at the end of his line.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s tough to rank these guys.  As Drungo said, they are all very close.  I’m good with the top 3 on how I ranked them.  But 4-7 could be interchangeable.

That’s why I started this thread.    They’re all really good.    They all have pluses and minuses and it’s partly just a matter of what type of things are important to you.   Longevity and durability vs. a high peak, post-season performance, whether wins carry any weight, and lots of other factors.  

I often think about how Sandy Koufax retired right at the top of his game because he thought his arm wouldn’t take much more.    If he’d chosen to keep pitching and saw a drastic 3-4 year decline in performance the way King Felix and some others have, would we look at him the same way we do now?  At 48.9 rWAR, he’s behind every pitcher on this list.   But he left the indelible impression of being one of the greatest pitchers of all time.   
 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

WS MVP in 1985.  Wasn't so good in other postseason appearances, but those came when he was at the end of his line.

Yea..I just looked up overall and I was doing it on my phone.

I ended up moving him up to 6th though.  I think he could be higher.  Drungo has him 1.  There is a case for that.  He has the best ERA, best FIP, best WAR seasons and has 2 CY.  But he had 8 seasons of 150 IP or less.  That bothers me some.  Durability matters to me in these types of discussions and that was an issue for him.

I will say this, he was a lot better over his career than I thought he was.  Knew he was good, knew he had the CY but his numbers are even better than I thought.  He also played behind good defenses, in a good park and in a good era.  That all helps.  

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

That’s why I started this thread.    They’re all really good.    They all have pluses and minuses and it’s partly just a matter of what type of things are important to you.   Longevity and durability vs. a high peak, post-season performance, whether wins carry any weight, and lots of other factors.  

I often think about how Sandy Koufax retired right at the top of his game because he thought his arm wouldn’t take much more.    If he’d chosen to keep pitching and saw a drastic 3-4 year decline in performance the way King Felix and some others have, would we look at him the same way we do now?  At 48.9 rWAR, he’s behind every pitcher on this list.   But he left the indelible impression of being one of the greatest pitchers of all time.   
 

Don’t get me started on Koufax

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea..I just looked up overall and I was doing it on my phone.

I ended up moving him up to 6th though.  I think he could be higher.  Drungo has him 1.  There is a case for that.  He has the best ERA, best FIP, best WAR seasons and has 2 CY.  But he had 8 seasons of 150 IP or less.  That bothers me some.  Durability matters to me in these types of discussions and that was an issue for him.

I will say this, he was a lot better over his career than I thought he was.  Knew he was good, knew he had the CY but his numbers are even better than I thought.  He also played behind good defenses, in a good park and in a good era.  That all helps.  

Yep, good take, especially the last paragraph.  I didn't remember him being good for the Mets but he was.  I think those were the Mets teams that had spent some money, had some star power names and just weren't that good.