John Means 2021

[Moose Milligan]

6 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I liked Bedard, word is his teammates liked him.  Thing is he didn't suffer fools so the media didn't care for him.

 

So very much of our opinions about players is filtered through the media.

No wonder you liked Bedard.

Best media Bedard exchange ever:

Bedard:  Okay, I'm only answering three questions.

Media member:  Why only three?

Bedard:  That's one.

Means is off to a good start this year but I'd like to see him put together a stretch of 6 innings+ games.  Right now he's got two 7 inning starts that sandwich a 4.2 and a 5.0 inning start.  He didn't have his best stuff in either start but he was able to battle, I will give him credit there.  I'm not saying he needs to go 7 innings of shutout ball each time out but I think he's gotta get past the 5th each time out if we want to look at him as an ace.  IMO he's able to give you a gem each time out, but he's also able to give you a 4 or 5 inning start with an escalated pitch count.

[VaBird1]

7 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I liked Bedard, word is his teammates liked him.  Thing is he didn't suffer fools so the media didn't care for him.

 

So very much of our opinions about players is filtered through the media.

I loved watching him speak after games.

[VaBird1]

58 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

No wonder you liked Bedard.

Best media Bedard exchange ever:

Bedard:  Okay, I'm only answering three questions.

Media member:  Why only three?

Bedard:  That's one.

That one made me laugh out loud as I was watching.

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, VaBird1 said:

That one made me laugh out loud as I was watching.

 Me too.  I'd love it if that were on youtube or something.  I laughed my ass off.

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Means is off to a good start this year but I'd like to see him put together a stretch of 6 innings+ games.  Right now he's got two 7 inning starts that sandwich a 4.2 and a 5.0 inning start.  He didn't have his best stuff in either start but he was able to battle, I will give him credit there.  I'm not saying he needs to go 7 innings of shutout ball each time out but I think he's gotta get past the 5th each time out if we want to look at him as an ace.  IMO he's able to give you a gem each time out, but he's also able to give you a 4 or 5 inning start with an escalated pitch count.

I agree, we need to see him perform well and get reasonably deep into games consistently over the year before we start putting him into some higher category.    But I do like what I’m seeing.   

I’m hoping that Means will stay healthier than Bedard was able to do.    Honestly I don’t think Means will ever reach the peak Bedard did or have the kind of trade value Bedard did (which was partially a function of the very weak FA pitching class in the winter when we traded him).    But if he can just stay on the mound and do what he’s capable of, that will be very valuable.   

[murph]

Connolly discusses whether Means can achieve true Ace status in the Athletic today (pay wall):  https://theathletic.com/2530115/2021/04/20/connollys-tap-room-will-orioles-lefty-john-means-reach-true-mlb-ace-status/?source=dailyemail

Read this line and couldn't believe it has been 20 years already!

"The Orioles haven’t had a true ace in 20-plus years, since Mike Mussina left for the New York Yankees after the 2000 season."

[SteveA]

7 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

 

Means is off to a good start this year but I'd like to see him put together a stretch of 6 innings+ games.  Right now he's got two 7 inning starts that sandwich a 4.2 and a 5.0 inning start.  He didn't have his best stuff in either start but he was able to battle, I will give him credit there.  I'm not saying he needs to go 7 innings of shutout ball each time out but I think he's gotta get past the 5th each time out if we want to look at him as an ace.  IMO he's able to give you a gem each time out, but he's also able to give you a 4 or 5 inning start with an escalated pitch count.

Look around baseball.   Starters aren't going deep.

Last night, pitchers who pitched well and allowed 2 or fewer runs:

Gausman 6 innings, 0 runs
Chase Anderson 4 innings, 2 runs
Fleming 5.1 innings, 2 runs
Duffy 6 innings, 2 runs
Arihara 5.1 innings, 0 runs
Woodruff 6 innings, 1 run
Musgrove 7 innings, 0 runs

It used to be that a guy pitching a shutout would always be in the game at least into the 7th, and a guy who had allowed 1 or 2 runs would always complete the 6th;  the rare exceptions were high pitch counts, guys coming off injuries, or guys who gave a ton of stuff in one inning after mowing guys down.

That's just not the case anymore.   6 innings is a longer than average start, EVEN for good pitchers.  7 is getting rare, and 8+ is happening about 5% of starts.

So expecting a stretch of 6+ innings games just isn't going to happen.   The game has changed.

John Means is the ONLY starter in MLB with 2 no-run starts of  7+ innings this year.   No one else has done that.   Not Bauer, Bieber, deGrom, or anyone.   Just John Means.

[ChipTait]

I got to see him dealing on Sunday.  Shame about the bats.

 

 

 

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, SteveA said:

Look around baseball.   Starters aren't going deep.

Last night, pitchers who pitched well and allowed 2 or fewer runs:

Gausman 6 innings, 0 runs
Chase Anderson 4 innings, 2 runs
Fleming 5.1 innings, 2 runs
Duffy 6 innings, 2 runs
Arihara 5.1 innings, 0 runs
Woodruff 6 innings, 1 run
Musgrove 7 innings, 0 runs

It used to be that a guy pitching a shutout would always be in the game at least into the 7th, and a guy who had allowed 1 or 2 runs would always complete the 6th;  the rare exceptions were high pitch counts, guys coming off injuries, or guys who gave a ton of stuff in one inning after mowing guys down.

That's just not the case anymore.   6 innings is a longer than average start, EVEN for good pitchers.  7 is getting rare, and 8+ is happening about 5% of starts.

So expecting a stretch of 6+ innings games just isn't going to happen.   The game has changed.

John Means is the ONLY starter in MLB with 2 no-run starts of  7+ innings this year.   No one else has done that.   Not Bauer, Bieber, deGrom, or anyone.   Just John Means.

First of all, that last part...that's nice and all, but you know as well as I do that John Means isn't in the Bieber/deGrom class.  

You took a small sample size of pitchers who started last night and jumped to some conclusions.  None of those guys are aces.  We're wondering if Means can be an ace...or at least a very good #2.  

I still stand by what I said...Means can start games where he has an elevated pitch count by the 4th or 5th inning.

[SteveA]

5 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

First of all, that last part...that's nice and all, but you know as well as I do that John Means isn't in the Bieber/deGrom class.  

You took a small sample size of pitchers who started last night and jumped to some conclusions.  None of those guys are aces.  We're wondering if Means can be an ace...or at least a very good #2.  

I still stand by what I said...Means can start games where he has an elevated pitch count by the 4th or 5th inning.

I still don't think you are living in 2021.   Even a lot of aces aren't going more than 6 innings very often.

deGrom 6IP (despite 0 runs), 8IP, 6IP

Bieber 6, 6.1, 9, 8

Bauer 6.1, 6.2, 7 (0 runs), 6

Cole 6.1, 6.2, 7, 6

Those guys aren't just aces, they are the elite of the aces.   And in 15 combined starts, they have completed 7 innings 5 times (33%).   Means has done it in 2 of 4 starts (50%).

Your expectation of an ace going 7 even half the time is outdated and not in line with how major league baseball is played in 2021.

 

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, SteveA said:

 

Your expectation of an ace going 7 even half the time is outdated and not in line with how major league baseball is played in 2021.

 

Where'd I say he needs to go 7 even half the time?  Or that Means needs to go 7?

I said a stretch of 6+ inning games.  That could be 4 or 5 games.  I just want to see some consistency. 

 

[SteveA]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Where'd I say he needs to go 7 even half the time?  Or that Means needs to go 7?

I said a stretch of 6+ inning games.  That could be 4 or 5 games.  I just want to see some consistency. 

 

OK, I can buy that.   But I do think we have to re-think our definition of "ace" in the current environment.   

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, SteveA said:

OK, I can buy that.   But I do think we have to re-think our definition of "ace" in the current environment.   

I don't.  Maybe there aren't going to be as many of them, but there's always going to be a market for a deGrom, Cole, Bieber, etc.  I agree that there's a shift in how the game is being approached these days but there's always going to a need for top tier guys.  But teams are getting more creative with bullpens, openers, etc.

[DrungoHazewood]

17 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I liked Bedard, word is his teammates liked him.  Thing is he didn't suffer fools so the media didn't care for him.

So very much of our opinions about players is filtered through the media.

I don't know much of anything about Bedard except what I've read here.  Maybe he was a good guy, maybe not.

But I think that a lot people who don't suffer fools think most everyone besides them are fools.  So really they're just jerks.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, SteveA said:

OK, I can buy that.   But I do think we have to re-think our definition of "ace" in the current environment.   

Of course we do, but that's been true for 150+ years.  Pitching and use patterns are always in flux.  The whole 20 wins, almost 300 innings, 40 starts expectation is that because there are a lot of baby boomers who were 12 years old in 1965.