Rutschman/Mussina

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, ChipTait said:

My wife likes to play the Lotto.  I told her that if those six numbers were to hit on the same night, it would be the biggest split pot in history, because I bet there are dozens of people in Baltimore who play them every week!

1-2-3-4-5-6

[Frobby]

14 minutes ago, Gentile4 said:

Of course, there are the three CYA's to consider and the fact that he was second twice, third once and fifth twice in the voting. I don't recall Mussina ever being considered the best pitcher in the league.

I’m going to get geeky on you.   Mind you I am only expressing the counter argument, not my point of view.  

Sabermetricians would say that the Cy Young voters of that period gave Palmer all the credit for what the defense was doing behind him, and that his gaudy W/L record and low ERA was largely the result of having players like Brooks, Belanger, Blair and Grich behind him.  Also, he played in a very pitcher-friendly ballpark that kept his ERA low.   In two of the three years where he won the CY, he was 6th and 5th in pitcher rWAR.   (He did have the highest once, in 1975.)

Now, that’s all well and good.   But Palmer was he best pitcher on some great teams, and was perceived at the time as the best pitcher in the AL.   So I’m on your side here, which is why I said I’d give Palmer the nod even though there are arguments (and WAR numbers) in Mussina’s favor.  But it’s at least a debatable point.   

 

[Gentile4]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m going to get geeky on you.   Mind you I am only expressing the counter argument, not my point of view.  

Sabermetricians would say that the Cy Young voters of that period gave Palmer all the credit for what the defense was doing behind him, and that his gaudy W/L record and low ERA was largely the result of having players like Brooks, Belanger, Blair and Grich behind him.  Also, he played in a very pitcher-friendly ballpark that kept his ERA low.   In two of the three years where he won the CY, he was 6th and 5th in pitcher rWAR.   (He did have the highest once, in 1975.)

Now, that’s all well and good.   But Palmer was he best pitcher on some great teams, and was perceived at the time as the best pitcher in the AL.   So I’m on your side here, which is why I said I’d give Palmer the nod even though there are arguments (and WAR numbers) in Mussina’s favor.  But it’s at least a debatable point.   

 

Great stuff. I'm definitely not a Mussina hater and thought he should have gone into the HOF much earlier than his sixth year of eligibility. Good point about Palmer's defense playing a role. 

[TonySoprano]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Painful.   I attended that game.   Super depressing.   And Mussina couldn’t have been better.   

and that ladies and gents was when the "Frobby jinx" began. 

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

and that ladies and gents was when the "Frobby jinx" began. 

Well, I did attend the only game they lost in the 1983 WS.

[Sports Guy]

5 hours ago, wildcard said:

I am with Tony on this.  Every Oriole that has had his number retired was part of a World Series team as an Oriole.   To retire Mussina's number lowers that bar.  I see no reason for it.

Mussina belongs in the O's HOF.  He deserves respect for being in the MLB HOF.   But he never led the O's to the WS.   Keep his number active.

 

So if we won the title in 1997, you know when he set records and had one of the best postseasons for a pitcher ever, you would be ok retiring his number?

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, Gentile4 said:

Of course, there are the three CYA's to consider and the fact that he was second twice, third once and fifth twice in the voting. I don't recall Mussina ever being considered the best pitcher in the league.

Go look at,I believe, 2001.  Take a look at the CY voting and let me know who should have won.

[eddie83]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

So if we won the title in 1997, you know when he set records and had one of the best postseasons for a pitcher ever, you would be ok retiring his number?

A player should never be penalized for not being a Champ. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Go look at I believe 2001.  Take a look at the CY voting and let me know who should have won.

The guy that had the third best season should have won because of the stupid division between the American and National leagues?

If you give out one award, Johnson gets it.

If the best two pitchers get the award Johnson and Schilling get it.

Once someone undeserving gets it does it matter which one?

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, eddie83 said:

A player should never be penalized for not being a Champ. 

Except Lew Ford.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

A player should never be penalized for not being a Champ. 

At least not in baseball.

[Gofannon]

6 hours ago, wildcard said:

For me the bar should include a WS.  If a player never gets there he should not be included now or in the future. Don't water down the retiring of a number.

Luck plays a role in every players career.   Palmer was lucky to play with the teammates he did.  Mussina is lucky that the ball that hit in the head didn't do more damage. (Thank God).   You can say a lot of players were not and will not be lucky in th future.    Doesn't mean they should have their # retired with an asterisk.

So no Cubs Hall of Fame for Ernie Banks or no Red Sox Hall of Fame for Ted Williams?

I'm not saying Mike Mussina is at the level of either of those players, though he is a Hall of Famer.  And I know that both of these players had a much longer history with their franchises than Moose did with the O's.  It's never occurred to me that his number should be retired.  I just think that the bar you set seems arbitrary to me.

[Redskins Rick]

On 8/6/2021 at 2:36 PM, Frobby said:

So let’s say we eventually have some other Hall of Famer who plays most or all of his career here but the O’s never win a WS while he’s here.   Would you not retire his number because of that?

I’m fine with not retiring Mussina’s number, but it’s not his fault the O’s never won a WS with him.   The guy was absolutely brilliant in the 1997 playoffs but the team couldn’t pull it off, for completely unrelated reasons.   

Wow, since when did retiring a number was based on both HOF and WS play?

I know teams have their own guidelines and there is no standard, just never heard of the above.

I also get it, depends on which team you go into the HOF as

[Gentile4]

I wonder if there are other cases like Frank's where he only played six seasons for the team that retired his number. Admittedly, he had one monster season, four really good ones, and two rings. 

Also, I wonder if teams like the Yankees will ever unretire numbers.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 minute ago, Gentile4 said:

I wonder if there are other cases like Frank's where he only played six seasons for the team that retired his number. Admittedly, he had one monster season, four really good ones, and two rings. 

Also, I wonder if teams like the Yankees will ever unretire numbers.

Reggie Jackson played for the Yankees from 1977 through 1981 and his #44 is retired by the franchise.