MLB Lockout Thread

[Hallas]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's the entertainment business.  Hanson made 60M (net worth) off of one song that anyone remembers.

The guys that did Macerena make over 250K a year in royalties off of one song.

To say that a player, who probably put in five years or so in the minors, shouldn't be able to live off a five year career is a bit odd to me. 

5 years in MLB.  Total time in pro ball is more like 8-10 years.  And I don't think we bother counting minor league salaries; we know they're just surviving.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Hallas said:

5 years in MLB.  Total time in pro ball is more like 8-10 years.  And I don't think we bother counting minor league salaries; we know they're just surviving.

Right...I mentioned that.

[Big Mac]

7 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Keep in mind that players also spent time in the minors.  A player with a 5 year MLB career probably has spent 8-10 years in pro ball, and earning basically a subsistence salary during his minor league career.

Right. So that would put you anywhere from 26-31 depending on how old you were when you were drafted.  I expect those people to work again in some capacity yes.  They are already ahead of other people looking for jobs right out of college with the guaranteed pension and health insurance, plus you know the millions in earnings.

Not that I expect this from all players but it is reasonable to save enough for retirement on 5 years of MLB earnings even with the system under the current CBA.

I'm all for the players getting a fair share of increased revenue and increasing their earning capacity early in their careers I just push back on the notion that they all deserve to be set for life after retiring before age 30.

[Hallas]

Part of the reason I am taking the players side here is because while I would prefer to see baseball being played, it's pretty clear that some teams (Orioles) are abusing the current rules and are fielding substandard teams that I have no interest in watching.   I want to see baseball being played, but I want to see competitive baseball, not the AAA Orioles getting curbstomped by the Yankees 20 times a year, and I feel like the rules proposed by the PA would help in this regard.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Big Mac said:

Right. So that would put you anywhere from 26-31 depending on how old you were when you were drafted.  I expect those people to work again in some capacity yes.  They are already ahead of other people looking for jobs right out of college with the guaranteed pension and health insurance, plus you know the millions in earnings.

Not that I expect this from all players but it is reasonable to save enough for retirement on 5 years of MLB earnings even with the system under the current CBA.

I'm all for the players getting a fair share of increased revenue and increasing their earning capacity early in their careers I just push back on the notion that they all deserve to be set for life after retiring before age 30.

I'm not talking about set for life. 

I'm talking not having to work again.

I think I'm considering a lower standard of living then you are.

I'm expecting them to have a realistic budget and to make sound financial decisions (which of course they won't all do).

But if you play MLB for five years you shouldn't have to be bagging groceries when your 60 to pay off your used car.

[Big Mac]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not talking about set for life. 

I'm talking not having to work again.

I think I'm considering a lower standard of living then you are.

I'm expecting them to have a realistic budget and to make sound financial decisions (which of course they won't all do).

But if you play MLB for five years you shouldn't have to be bagging groceries when your 60 to pay off your used car.

I agree with this, I just don't think this should happen even under the current system unless you make disastrous financial and life decisions.  If you play 5 years in the MLB and you end up in this scenario, you did something terribly wrong and most likely getting even a couple more million in your playing days wouldn't change this. 

[Pickles]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not talking about set for life. 

I'm talking not having to work again.

I think I'm considering a lower standard of living then you are.

I'm expecting them to have a realistic budget and to make sound financial decisions (which of course they won't all do).

But if you play MLB for five years you shouldn't have to be bagging groceries when your 60 to pay off your used car.

Lol.  Get real dude.

[DrungoHazewood]

21 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Is this controversial?  Making it to MLB is hard, and these players have forsaken a traditional career.  So I think at the very least they need to earn enough so that they can forego working after they wash out for a fairly long period while they figure out alternative career prospects.  Especially considering that all athletes have a far higher injury rate than a typical worker. Maybe not for the rest of their lives but at least for the 10-15 years following their exit from the league.  I don't know if a utility guy making the league minimum for parts of 6 seasons really meets this bar.

They need to earn a reasonable fraction of the revenues baseball generates.  Nobody should expect that they make enough to comfortably transition to a new career when this one is over no matter what field they're in.  Minor leaguers don't get any cushion, nobody helps them transition back into the non-baseball world.  There are 10th round picks who got a small bonus, made $1500 a month for the regular season part of six or eight years, then got released and they figure it out.  NFL players make $660k (min) and have shorter careers than MLBers. 

MLB brings in roughly $10B a year, and let's say the players should get half.  There are 30x26 = 780 roster spots.  That means about $6M per roster spot, which is of course heavily weighted towards better players with more service time under current rules.  That's about what they should expect, it has nothing to do with injury rates, or transitioning to a new career, or anything else.

Women's soccer league players in the US make like $50k a year and don't get any stipend to transition to something else or dispensation for higher injury rates.  That's what league revenues can support.

[Pickles]

7 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Part of the reason I am taking the players side here is because while I would prefer to see baseball being played, it's pretty clear that some teams (Orioles) are abusing the current rules and are fielding substandard teams that I have no interest in watching.   I want to see baseball being played, but I want to see competitive baseball, not the AAA Orioles getting curbstomped by the Yankees 20 times a year, and I feel like the rules proposed by the PA would help in this regard.

So you think raising the Competitive Balance Tax and lowering the penalities for exceeding it would make the Orioles MORE competitive with the Yankees?

[LookinUp]

2 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

I just don't think they ever cared about the fans ...

I wonder, what do people think it would look like if they cared about the fans? Here's my quick list:

1. They're playing games. Not locked out or striking.

2. The best players in an organization can be on the ML team rather than held back for any reason.

3. Teams have financial ability to keep their own players (e.g. what the NBA does in some form).

4. All teams have a level financial playing field, or at least something much closer to level than exists now.

11 minutes ago, Hallas said:

Keep in mind that players also spent time in the minors.  A player with a 5 year MLB career probably has spent 8-10 years in pro ball, and earning basically a subsistence salary during his minor league career.

Most people, especially those who don't go to college, earn a pittance when they first enter the workforce. Baseball players are doing this with full knowledge of the cost/benefits. Most aren't exactly being forced to forego millions. They're just delaying the start of some other standard middle class career so they can get paid to play the game they played as kids. Oh, and they work about 8 months a year. They're not exactly victims in this. 

Minor league compensation probably should be raised, but the vast majority of these guys are choosing this path over the alternative even though they know their odds of making the majors is small. 

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

They need to earn a reasonable fraction of the revenues baseball generates.  Nobody should expect that they make enough to comfortably transition to a new career when this one is over no matter what field they're in.  Minor leaguers don't get any cushion, nobody helps them transition back into the non-baseball world.  There are 10th round picks who got a small bonus, made $1500 a month for the regular season part of six or eight years, then got released and they figure it out.  NFL players make $660k (min) and have shorter careers than MLBers. 

MLB brings in roughly $10B a year, and let's say the players should get half.  There are 30x26 = 780 roster spots.  That means about $6M per roster spot, which is of course heavily weighted towards better players with more service time under current rules.  That's about what they should expect, it has nothing to do with injury rates, or transitioning to a new career, or anything else.

Women's soccer league players in the US make like $50k a year and don't get any stipend to transition to something else or dispensation for higher injury rates.  That's what league revenues can support.

The average ML salary is over 4 million per year.  I notice you also take no conisderation of the considerable costs in running a ML franchise.  With that taken into the equation, we're getting awful close to what they should expect according to you.

I mean the players have a right to try to get more of the pie.  And I make no strong comment on the current round of negotiations.

But this idea that retired players are being forced to live in boxes and eat cat food after retiring from baseball because of the pernicious greed of the owners is going a little far in this thread.

[Big Mac]

I'd like to use Tyler Wilson as an example.  He pitched 145 innings over parts of three MLB seasons and made about 1.022M and has a degree from UVA.  A player like him should be able to transition to a normal career and have a comfortable life.  Plus again, he has the pension and health insurance for life. 

 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Pickles said:

So you think raising the Competitive Balance Tax and lowering the penalities for exceeding it would make the Orioles MORE competitive with the Yankees?

I think the Orioles spending a reasonable amount while making sound decisions will make a much larger difference in their competitiveness than anything they do to curb the Yankees spending.  With 12 teams making the playoffs why do you want to focus in on beating the Yankees anyway?

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think the Orioles spending a reasonable amount while making sound decisions will make a much larger difference in their competitiveness than anything they do to curb the Yankees spending.  With 12 teams making the playoffs why do you want to focus in on beating the Yankees anyway?

Because revenue is directly correlated to winning.  It isn't a mystery.