Roch guesses OD lineup…Urias at SS

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

Urias, Mateo and Gutierrez should get a day off every week. Maybe against certain pitching match ups, or maybe one of the three above are banged up. That would be my plan anyway. If he is a starting infielder over the three above consistently, then he had better have a career year.

He’s a flier, a placeholder, a penny stock. He is an improvement over any of the other depth pieces and parts we had available, unless you would rather have Richie Martin, Jahmai Jones or Rylan Bannon? And only Martin offers any real versatility of that group. Odor adds a LH bat that Hyde talked about the Orioles needing repeatedly last year. 

As far as calling Elias lazy or whatever the rest of your morning rant is, I can’t follow you there. Judging an off season at this time is impossible, although I will admit I do not expect us to go sign Correa or any other star FA when the lockout concludes. We have not been competing, true. You are getting impatient, got it. It is a process he laid out, and it is working like he said it would. The long term health of this team is to build it right. This isn’t a normal “rebuild.” It is building something that was not here before in many instances, i.e. the analytics department and international scouting.

Elias seems to have passed along some of his initial responsibilities to others as he has hired them. He was patient to make the “right” hires, according to him. He has not proven himself capable of building a winning major league team as a GM. Not yet. That much is true. It is difficult to judge the trades, but they appear to be mostly very good. Maybe not the Yaz trade, but the rest have been favorable so far. I will remain positive, for now. Elias has done a tremendous job to this point. He has two years to show me he can build a playoff caliber team. If not, pitchforks come out. 

Lots of excuses and none of them explain losing on purpose for this amount of time.  It’s not needed.  It’s cheap and lazy.  

[Jammer7]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Lots of excuses and none of them explain losing on purpose for this amount of time.  It’s not needed.  It’s cheap and lazy.  

As an Orioles fan, you would be a great Mets fan. lol

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

As an Orioles fan, you would be a great Mets fan. lol

Why?  Because I expect my team, after years of being pathetic, to do what other teams do?  Be good and have a solid organization at the same time?

Because I expect them to put a product on the field worth watching?  
 

You may enjoy watching a garbage product and being miserable watching it.  Good for you.  You enjoy misery.  Personally, I don’t and unlike you, I actually expect this organization to attempt to get better.

You are ok with giving bs excuses.  That’s not me.

[Jammer7]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Why?  Because I expect my team, after years of being pathetic, to do what other teams do?  Be good and have a solid organization at the same time?

Because I expect them to put a product on the field worth watching?  
 

You may enjoy watching a garbage product and being miserable watching it.  Good for you.  You enjoy misery.  Personally, I don’t and unlike you, I actually expect this organization to attempt to get better.

You are ok with giving bs excuses.  That’s not me.

It was some light humor, grumpy. Apparently lost on you. I was alluding to the Mets fans who want it NOW every year. 

I do enjoy watching young prospects grow, for now. I am hungry to see a playoff contender again, and I make zero excuses. I want a long term winner, not constant mediocrity or worse. There are reasons things happen. Your rant is well-noted and I will leave you to it, Rob. 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

It was some light humor, grumpy. Apparently lost on you. I was alluding to the Mets fans who want it NOW every year. 

I do enjoy watching young prospects grow, for now. I am hungry to see a playoff contender again, and I make zero excuses. I want a long term winner, not constant mediocrity or worse. There are reasons things happen. Your rant is well-noted and I will leave you to it, Rob. 

The only thing I’m demanding is a decent product capable of winning 75ish games.  
 

That’s wanting it right now?  Your standards are incredibly low if so.

They can do all the things needed to build a long term winner while also putting a better product on the field.

 

[Sports Guy]

What has the organization done for long term success that could not have been done if they were trying to win games?  Adley was already coming, so that doesn’t count.

 

[wildcard]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

What has the organization done for long term success that could not have been done if they were trying to win games?  Adley was already coming, so that doesn’t count.

 

Lower payroll so they have enough payroll space to spend when they deem it appropriate.  Lower payroll is part of the tear down and rebuild process.

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Lower payroll so they have enough payroll space to spend when they deem it appropriate.  Lower payroll is part of the tear down and rebuild process.

Sure but they traded any of the long term contracts early on in this process and those deals would be off the books by now anyway.

So I repeat, what have they done that was necessary for the long term that losing on purpose was required?

This will be the 4th season where they go into things trying not to win games.  Why do they need to do that at this point?

[Frobby]

30 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure but they traded any of the long term contracts early on in this process and those deals would be off the books by now anyway.

So I repeat, what have they done that was necessary for the long term that losing on purpose was required?

This will be the 4th season where they go into things trying not to win games.  Why do they need to do that at this point?

Seems like we have this conversation every other week, though in fairness there’s not much worth discussing during this dead period.   Having greater payroll flexibility helps.   Having higher draft picks helps.   And sure, you can build a good farm system without the super high picks, but it helps to have them, and the extra allotment of funds that can be spent on the draft.  

I don’t care very much how bad the team is when it’s bad.  I care about how good they’ll be when they’re good, and how long they’ll be able to stay good.   All that is to be determined.   
 

[Jammer7]

42 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The only thing I’m demanding is a decent product capable of winning 75ish games.  
 

That’s wanting it right now?  Your standards are incredibly low if so.

They can do all the things needed to build a long term winner while also putting a better product on the field.

 

So you want the Orioles to be a mediocre non-playoff contender? I agree. So, let the offseason play out. My standards have been low since 2018. I helps me deal with a terrible major league team playing in the AL East. I do maintain an eye toward the goal, but the reality is Elias has had a lot to do with creating a completely new organization. You say it is an excuse, I say it is the reality. Elias had an extremely daunting job when he arrived. 

I tend to look for bright spots and prospects that might be late bloomers and such. That is why guys like Gutierrez, Mateo, Jorge Lopez and Urias are very interesting to me. I am encouraged by the growth last year by Mullins, Mountcastle, Hays, Urias, McKenna and Tyler Wells. I was encouraged by the way Akin and Lowther finished the year. I was pleased to see Mancini make it through the year after cancer, though it was not the Mancini of previous years.

I love the infusion of talent that has come with losing, but I am ready to see us draft in the high 20’s, sure. We have amassed some talent to make a run. That, along with getting the international talent flow going, will sustain us with value for trades and to fill holes. 

Adley, by himself, makes this team much better. I know you want Dejong, instead of Odor. That is a negligible difference to me, in the way that they fit here if the plan is to see what Mateo, Gutierrez and Urias can do until Westburg, Henderson and Ortiz come up.

They believe in their development system. They will let these guys grow and develop. This team will be much better than 2021. The starting pitching has to improve for that to happen so the pen isn’t burnt by mid May. A 75 win team is very much within reach if a few starters come through. 

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Seems like we have this conversation every other week, though in fairness there’s not much worth discussing during this dead period.   Having greater payroll flexibility helps.   Having higher draft picks helps.   And sure, you can build a good farm system without the super high picks, but it helps to have them, and the extra allotment of funds that can be spent on the draft.  

I don’t care very much how bad the team is when it’s bad.  I care about how good they’ll be when they’re good, and how long they’ll be able to stay good.   All that is to be determined.   
 

The payroll flexibility helps..but it would be there now regardless.

And yes, one higher pick MAY help.  No guarantee of course and you can still draft well without it.  So that’s tenuous at best.  But that is the actual only benefit to losing.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

So you want the Orioles to be a mediocre non-playoff contender? I agree. So, let the offseason play out. My standards have been low since 2018. I helps me deal with a terrible major league team playing in the AL East. I do maintain an eye toward the goal, but the reality is Elias has had a lot to do with creating a completely new organization. You say it is an excuse, I say it is the reality. Elias had an extremely daunting job when he arrived. 

I tend to look for bright spots and prospects that might be late bloomers and such. That is why guys like Gutierrez, Mateo, Jorge Lopez and Urias are very interesting to me. I am encouraged by the growth last year by Mullins, Mountcastle, Hays, Urias, McKenna and Tyler Wells. I was encouraged by the way Akin and Lowther finished the year. I was pleased to see Mancini make it through the year after cancer, though it was not the Mancini of previous years.

I love the infusion of talent that has come with losing, but I am ready to see us draft in the high 20’s, sure. We have amassed some talent to make a run. That, along with getting the international talent flow going, will sustain us with value for trades and to fill holes. 

Adley, by himself, makes this team much better. I know you want Dejong, instead of Odor. That is a negligible difference to me, in the way that they fit here if the plan is to see what Mateo, Gutierrez and Urias can do until Westburg, Henderson and Ortiz come up.

They believe in their development system. They will let these guys grow and develop. This team will be much better than 2021. The starting pitching has to improve for that to happen so the pen isn’t burnt by mid May. A 75 win team is very much within reach if a few starters come through. 

And you can have all of this and still field a better team in 2022.  You keep rattling off the same cliches as if they matter.

You sound like you are writing speeches for Elias titled “how to fool a fan base into thinking losing is what we need to be doing right now”

NONE of this is justification for losing on purpose right now.  There is zero benefit to losing on purpose outside of one higher draft pick.  That’s it.  

And don’t give me the draft pool bs because most of the difference in the draft pool is given to that first pick and all teams sign overslot guys regardless of their draft pool level.

[Frobby]

29 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The payroll flexibility helps..but it would be there now regardless.

And yes, one higher pick MAY help.  No guarantee of course and you can still draft well without it.  So that’s tenuous at best.  But that is the actual only benefit to losing.

I don’t agree with your first paragraph, but it’s a point we’ve discussed before and we’re simply not going to agree.   To me, $30 mm we don’t spend on free agents now is $30 mm more we potentially have available to spend when it will help a contending team.   

To be clear, I’m not saying we wouldn’t have a good deal of flexibility even if we spent some more money now.   I’m just saying we’ll have more if we wait.   
 

[Jammer7]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And you can have all of this and still field a better team in 2022.  You keep rattling off the same cliches as if they matter.

You sound like you are writing speeches for Elias titled “how to fool a fan base into thinking losing is what we need to be doing right now”

NONE of this is justification for losing on purpose right now.  There is zero benefit to losing on purpose outside of one higher draft pick.  That’s it.  

And don’t give me the draft pool bs because most of the difference in the draft pool is given to that first pick and all teams sign overslot guys regardless of their draft pool level.

Ok, being rude doesn't make you right. It's a shame. Most here on this board can have an intelligent discussion and remain civil. I see this is still a problem for you. 

This is the same rehashed rant you spout every few weeks. I was sitting here, bored, at home getting over COVID. I thought I would engage you today, as we actually agree on many things. But you are back to the old SG, and it's too bad, Rob. You have solid knowledge and insight, as do several here. But when you get like this, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

I am not an Elias apologist. I happen to agree with what he is doing. I see the value in the process he has put into place, and it only works if you see it through. Abandoning that now will put us back in the same mediocre crap we had for 14 years prior to Buck. It may fail, sure, but that model has worked in other places. I will always call it how I see it. You disagree. Cool. Moving on...

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t agree with your first paragraph, but it’s a point we’ve discussed before and we’re simply not going to agree.   To me, $30 mm we don’t spend on free agents now is $30 mm more we potentially have available to spend when it will help a contending team.   

To be clear, I’m not saying we wouldn’t have a good deal of flexibility even if we spent some more money now.   I’m just saying we’ll have more if we wait.   
 

Frobby, you just aren’t realistic.  That 30M isn’t going into some “spend it later bank account”. There is no possible way that you actually believe that.

Now, if they have 30M in contracts in 2024 vs no money in 2024, we agree that it would give them more money to spend on 2024.  But those are 2 different things.  
 

And I don’t know how you disagree with what I said because it’s a fact.  We have payroll flexibility and, to the point I was making, we would be rid of the long term deals by now anyway, whether we dealt guys like Cobb or not.  They would be off the books by now.  The only player on the books that we couldn’t do anything about was Davis.