Brian Gonzalez insight on Os Development

[justD]

Starting at about the 20-min mark, talks about getting signed, then being in development under both the Buck regime and that of Elias/Mejdal. 

(Sorry if this was already posted)

[SteveA]

Interesting stuff.

Talks about his early years with the O's organization, he had 10 different coaches telling them different things.  "Old school", "all eye test", "good coaches but all based on their experience".  Buck Showalter was running the show in the organization and they had Gold Glovers in the infield like JJ Hardy and Manny Machado, so they wanted all their pitchers to be groundball pitchers.    They would ask him at the end of the season what he felt he needed to work on in the offseason and he would say cut down on my walks because it's what they wanted to hear.

Says the new regime was a huge change.  Everyone knows what they are expected to do.  Sometimes all the data can be a bit overwhelming, but it's good to know what is expected of you

 

[Tony-OH]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:59 AM, SteveA said:

Interesting stuff.

Talks about his early years with the O's organization, he had 10 different coaches telling them different things.  "Old school", "all eye test", "good coaches but all based on their experience".  Buck Showalter was running the show in the organization and they had Gold Glovers in the infield like JJ Hardy and Manny Machado, so they wanted all their pitchers to be groundball pitchers.    They would ask him at the end of the season what he felt he needed to work on in the offseason and he would say cut down on my walks because it's what they wanted to hear.

Says the new regime was a huge change.  Everyone knows what they are expected to do.  Sometimes all the data can be a bit overwhelming, but it's good to know what is expected of you

 

Thanks for the synopsis.

[sportsfan8703]

Good insights for sure. It’s pretty obvious that once our last “run” started under DD that everything was sacrificed for the success of the MLB team. Under Elias, we’re about to start another run but I have faith that we’ll have a constant pipeline of supplemental talent. 
 

I really enjoyed the last run, and was the president of the DD fan club, but now I’m realizing that run was really set up by Macphail and what he built. DD had some great trades/signings, but near the end it was a disaster. Whether that was DD, Buck, or Brady we’ll never know. It’s clear now that one person is in charge and there is one message throughout the organization. 

[spiritof66]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Good insights for sure. It’s pretty obvious that once our last “run” started under DD that everything was sacrificed for the success of the MLB team. Under Elias, we’re about to start another run but I have faith that we’ll have a constant pipeline of supplemental talent. 
 

I really enjoyed the last run, and was the president of the DD fan club, but now I’m realizing that run was really set up by Macphail and what he built. DD had some great trades/signings, but near the end it was a disaster. Whether that was DD, Buck, or Brady we’ll never know. It’s clear now that one person is in charge and there is one message throughout the organization. 

It does appear that the Orioles lacked a decision-making process that would be considered normal for an MLB team. But I think you missed the most damaging part of that process.

I have no non-public information, but when I looked at what was available to me at the time, I found it pretty obvious that many of the worst decisions -- skimping on international talent, trading promising prospects for over-valued veterans who might help the team win right away, holding on to valuable veterans under team control (or with contracts), who weren't going to be retained, until after the window to compete had closed, investing belatedly and lightly on analytics, the Davis mess -- were the product of an almost-90-year old team owner who was putting all his chips on the possibility, even as it got remote, on getting to the World Series after two decades of failing to do so. When I look back at really foolish decisions that focused obsessively on the team's near-term success, and I see at the top of the chain of command  a decision-maker who has proven himself to be a monumental fool about baseball (and not to recognize that), and who has a clear motive to disregard the team's long-term future, it's hard for me to avoid that inference. And, though I haven't gone back and revisited these facts for years, and don't intend to do so, I recall that there were occasional disclosures and leaks that supported it.

There were rumblings depicting Brady as a yes-man for some of those decisions, but I never really understood who Brady in the organization after his playing career ended. I don't know about Buck and Duquette (though I recall that Duquette distanced himself, or tried to, from some decisions). I'd like to think that both knew too much about baseball and cared too much about the Orioles and their own reputations to drive or support some of them.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

It does appear that the Orioles lacked a decision-making process that would be considered normal for an MLB team. But I think you missed the most damaging part of that process.

I have no non-public information, but when I looked at what was available to me at the time, I found it pretty obvious that many of the worst decisions -- skimping on international talent, trading promising prospects for over-valued veterans who might help the team win right away, holding on to valuable veterans under team control (or with contracts), who weren't going to be retained, until after the window to compete had closed, investing belatedly and lightly on analytics, the Davis mess -- were the product of an almost-90-year old team owner who was putting all his chips on the possibility, even as it got remote, on getting to the World Series after two decades of failing to do so. When I look back at really foolish decisions that focused obsessively on the team's near-term success, and I see at the top of the chain of command  a decision-maker who has proven himself to be a monumental fool about baseball (and not to recognize that), and who has a clear motive to disregard the team's long-term future, it's hard for me to avoid that inference. And, though I haven't gone back and revisited these facts for years, and don't intend to do so, I recall that there were occasional disclosures and leaks that supported it.

There were rumblings depicting Brady as a yes-man for some of those decisions, but I never really understood who Brady in the organization after his playing career ended. I don't know about Buck and Duquette (though I recall that Duquette distanced himself, or tried to, from some decisions). I'd like to think that both knew too much about baseball and cared too much about the Orioles and their own reputations to drive or support some of them.

I don't think all of the stuff you listed were because of the bolded.

I think a lot of it, International spending and reliance on veterans were a result of a mindset that favored "proven" guys.  This was also true under Angelos when the O's were not a contender.

[Frobby]

I liked the fact that the host of the podcast, who is a pitcher in the Rockies organization, was very impressed with the talent in the Orioles organization.   He said the Baysox had the best lineup he faced all year, and you could just tell that the Orioles had certain characteristics they looked for in players.  

[Jammer7]

Another draftee who had not really heard from the Orioles’ scouts much. At about the 53 minute mark, he mentioned how he found out he was drafted. He said he filled out a questionnaire and talked to an Oriole scout ONCE. He said his dad told him that he would be going to college at Miami if not taken the first day of the draft. He said Seattle was supposed to take him at pick #72 after a brief phone conversation. He said the Orioles took him on day 2 at #90 and he found out about from a text from his travel ball coach and then saw it on Twitter. 

The previous group did things that still make me scratch my head. 

[Tony-OH]

20 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Good insights for sure. It’s pretty obvious that once our last “run” started under DD that everything was sacrificed for the success of the MLB team. Under Elias, we’re about to start another run but I have faith that we’ll have a constant pipeline of supplemental talent. 
 

I really enjoyed the last run, and was the president of the DD fan club, but now I’m realizing that run was really set up by Macphail and what he built. DD had some great trades/signings, but near the end it was a disaster. Whether that was DD, Buck, or Brady we’ll never know. It’s clear now that one person is in charge and there is one message throughout the organization. 

We've beaten this dead horse a million times but hell, why got little to talk about right now so why not.

MacPhail did provide a decent base, particularly with the Bedard trade that netted Jones and Tillman and of course acquiring JJ Hardy for nothing and Chris Davis for Uehara. The Orioles were 69-93 in MacPhail's last year. The only player under 28 that were on the team in 2011 that would play a big role in the future were Wieters, Jones, Markakis, Davis Britton (relief), Tillman, and Matusz (relief).

In one offseason, DD acquired Miguel Gonzales (3.0 WAR), Jason Hammel (2.8 WAR), Win-Yin Chen (2.6 WAR), Wilson Betemit (0.8)  brought up 19-year old Machado (1.6 WAR) and Nate McClouth (0.9 WAR) in season and the Orioles ended up 93-69, a 24 game improvement.

By 2014, when DD was still in complete control of baseball operations, he added Steve Pearce (5.8 WAR), Nelson Cruz (4.5 WAR), Bud Norris (2.1 WAR), playoff hero Delmond Young (1 WAR), Brad Brach and the Orioles had a World Series winning-caliber team. So in three years DD built a World Series caliber team from a 93 loss last place team.

So while MacPhail did acquire some of the players that were key (Jones, Tillman, Davis), DD basically rebuilt the starting pitching staff and acquired impact position players to take the team to the next level.

As for how it all went bad, I suggest you read my piece from 2008. 

https://www.orioleshangout.com/2018/05/09/orioles-game-of-thrones-and-the-way-forward/

 

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Another draftee who had not really heard from the Orioles’ scouts much. At about the 53 minute mark, he mentioned how he found out he was drafted. He said he filled out a questionnaire and talked to an Oriole scout ONCE. He said his dad told him that he would be going to college at Miami if not taken the first day of the draft. He said Seattle was supposed to take him at pick #72 after a brief phone conversation. He said the Orioles took him on day 2 at #90 and he found out about from a text from his travel ball coach and then saw it on Twitter. 

The previous group did things that still make me scratch my head. 

What is crazy is he was their top pick that year.  I could see if it was a normal draft and he was their fifth pick and he dropped unexpectedly and they snag him but your first pick and you don't talk to him?

[Jammer7]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

What is crazy is he was their top pick that year.  I could see if it was a normal draft and he was their fifth pick and he dropped unexpectedly and they snag him but your first pick and you don't talk to him?

Yeah, #90 is pretty far down the board, but the area guy spoke with him once? Good Lord. Obviously they had more than one report on him, but he only pitched extensively for one year prior to the draft, according to Brian. So it wasn’t a long track record either.

It isn’t the first time a draftee stated he was surprised the Orioles took him in that era. And the South Florida guys are very busy with all of the talent to cover. But once? Thank goodness for the current group. 

[Frobby]

I personally feel you (Tony) let DD off the hook far too much.   But I’m in no mood to rehash it all 3+ years later.  One thing I like about the current situation is the buck stops with Elias.   None of this palace intrigue who’s-to-blame-for-which-decision crap.   

[Just Regular]

https://www.masnsports.com/steve-melewski/2014/06/an-interview-with-orioles-top-draft-pick-brian-gonzalez.html

Here's Melewski back when it happened.   Ahh, 2014...when 18-year old high school kids would talk about pitching 7-8 innings while Clubs were learning 15 pitches of Evan Phillips (or 500 other guys like him) gets the edge on Max Scherzer pitches 75-90, and Corbin Burnes after a peak Pedro season would be "physically unable to pitch" an elimination game on less than usual rest.   Can't wait for 2022 Grayson Rodriguez - the quotes from him and his handlers could be fun.

The June 2014 bit about high school top draftees 5 out of 6 times really hit me today as a contrast from current...Gausman was the outlier in the Hobgood-Machado-Bundy-Gausman-Harvey-Gonzalez sequence between Matusz and DJ Stewart.

[spiritof66]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I personally feel you (Tony) let DD off the hook far too much.   But I’m in no mood to rehash it all 3+ years later.  One thing I like about the current situation is the buck stops with Elias.   None of this palace intrigue who’s-to-blame-for-which-decision crap.   

I believe we're likely to get to a simple version of that if Peter Angelos lives for a couple more years: Will it be Elias's decision, or ownership's unwillingness to spend, behind the Orioles' not offering top dollar to the best free agents who play positions where there's a need. For what it's worth, I think it will be on the owner but that we won't know for sure.

[Frobby]

58 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

I believe we're likely to get to a simple version of that if Peter Angelos lives for a couple more years: Will it be Elias's decision, or ownership's unwillingness to spend, behind the Orioles' not offering top dollar to the best free agents who play positions where there's a need. For what it's worth, I think it will be on the owner but that we won't know for sure.

That’s an issue for another day.   Expensive free agents are often a component of a winning team, but to me Elias is accountable to get the team to a point where that spending becomes worthwhile.   And while there might be issues as to whether ownership is willing to spend, it does not appear that there will be any sideshows involving whether the manager or executives other than Elias will be making their own recommendations.