Elias prioritizes player development over winning in the majors

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

Elias will be on MASN after next commercial break as an FYI. Less time I have to hear Garceau the better:)

[Tony-OH]

16 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Does anywhere track pitch counts for the minors?  I wonder how many times he even went over 80 pitches in the minors last year, much less 100?

They are in their game logs on baseball reference. https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=bradis000kyl&type=pgl&year=2021

Bradish's high pitch count was 93 and he went over 90 three times. He pitched between 80-89 pitches six times. So he only pitched over 80 pitches 9 times last year out of his 24 games.

By comparison Means pitched over 90 pitches in 17 of his 26 starts including five over 100.

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

12 minutes ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

Elias will be on MASN after next commercial break as an FYI. Less time I have to hear Garceau the better:)

Nothing noteworthy and frankly Elias seemed annoyed/distracted.  No questions on why they signed a bum for $7mil and signed no other stopgap starters. Shocking. 

[UMDTerrapins]

I know this is obvious but 2021 is a flawed barometer for ramping up pitchers’ innings since they were trying to limit innings over the course of the season due to the lost 2020 season and having soft caps for their prospects. 

[Tony-OH]

Just now, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

Nothing noteworthy and frankly Elias seemed annoyed/distracted.  No questions on why they signed a bum for $7mil and signed no other stopgap starters. Shocking. 

lol.. Yeah, I can't believe Garceau didn't ask him "Why he signed a bum for $7 million." 

It's a spring training interview. They are not going ask him why he didn't do "x" or "y".

As for any other stop gaps, how does that make the team better in 2023 and beyond? 

The Orioles need to evaluate T. Wells, Lowther, Zimmerman, Kremer, Akin, Baumann, and eventually Bradish this year to see what they have. All of these guys will get their chance this year to show they can be part of winning future. Giving a bunch of innings to a Zach Davies instead of these guys makes little sense to me.

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

They are in their game logs on baseball reference. https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=bradis000kyl&type=pgl&year=2021

Bradish's high pitch count was 93 and he went over 90 three times. He pitched between 80-89 pitches six times. So he only pitched over 80 pitches 9 times last year out of his 24 games.

By comparison Means pitched over 90 pitches in 17 of his 26 starts including five over 100.

Ok, thank you.

This is good info.  I would agree that he should be up to 100 pitches by mid May. 

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, UMDTerrapins said:

I know this is obvious but 2021 is a flawed barometer for ramping up pitchers’ innings since they were trying to limit innings over the course of the season due to the lost 2020 season and having soft caps for their prospects. 

And this is part of my questioning..How much are these guys going to jump up this year?

We saw them say they want Hall to throw at least 100 innings. He threw 31 inning last year.

I mentioned before the idea of Grayson getting to 150ish IP.  That got some push back as most saw 130-140.  I am not saying they are wrong but I wonder if they extend guys past the "Verducci rule"?  

This is perhaps the most important thing to watch in 2022.  In theory, if this team does want to put themselves in position to be a borderline contender in 2023, you would think these guys will have to throw a lot of innings and be ready to have the kid gloves taken off in 2023.  I mean, I think Hall will still be limited in 2023 but he should be able to push for 150 innings if he stays healthy this year and next.

[Sports Guy]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

lol.. Yeah, I can't believe Garceau didn't ask him "Why he signed a bum for $7 million." 

It's a spring training interview. They are not going ask him why he didn't do "x" or "y".

As for any other stop gaps, how does that make the team better in 2023 and beyond? 

The Orioles need to evaluate T. Wells, Lowther, Zimmerman, Kremer, Akin, Baumann, and eventually Bradish this year to see what they have. All of these guys will get their chance this year to show they can be part of winning future. Giving a bunch of innings to a Zach Davies instead of these guys makes little sense to me.

Signing Lyles AND Davies would have been dumb.  Signing Davies instead of Lyles would have been better.  

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

17 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

lol.. Yeah, I can't believe Garceau didn't ask him "Why he signed a bum for $7 million." 

It's a spring training interview. They are not going ask him why he didn't do "x" or "y".

As for any other stop gaps, how does that make the team better in 2023 and beyond? 

The Orioles need to evaluate T. Wells, Lowther, Zimmerman, Kremer, Akin, Baumann, and eventually Bradish this year to see what they have. All of these guys will get their chance this year to show they can be part of winning future. Giving a bunch of innings to a Zach Davies instead of these guys makes little sense to me.

Because young arms will get hurt/overworked and then you will be forced to bring up more young arms and hurt their development. Johnny Cueto still out there. Plenty of options for minor league contracts too.

like this guy: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/03/brewers-sign-jose-urena-to-minor-league-deal.html

or Archer.

I strongly believe this is a huge and dangerous step by Elias, irresponsible even.

[UMDTerrapins]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And this is part of my questioning..How much are these guys going to jump up this year?

We saw them say they want Hall to throw at least 100 innings. He threw 31 inning last year.

I mentioned before the idea of Grayson getting to 150ish IP.  That got some push back as most saw 130-140.  I am not saying they are wrong but I wonder if they extend guys past the "Verducci rule"?  

This is perhaps the most important thing to watch in 2022.  In theory, if this team does want to put themselves in position to be a borderline contender in 2023, you would think these guys will have to throw a lot of innings and be ready to have the kid gloves taken off in 2023.  I mean, I think Hall will still be limited in 2023 but he should be able to push for 150 innings if he stays healthy this year and next.

Good points. Hall’s usage will be interesting. I’m sure they’ll have a low pitch limit per start so they can spread out his innings over the full season. Sure sounds like they don’t think he needs much more time in the minors. I don’t either. Might be good for his development if he’s only taking two turns through the order anyhow. And force him to locate more so he can last deeper into games. That’s the great thing about spring training….everything is a positive. Until it’s not. 

[LookinUp]

2 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

...Young pitchers, in particular, are still growing and forming muscle and stamina in their early and mid 20’s. The minor league environment is more conducive for most to build strength, shape pitches, and find out what works for them as they climb the ladder. The thought is that this will help mitigate the injuries and get more value from their prospects as they are more consistent and build more confidence. It isn’t just the Orioles.

One of the biggest changes in player development is strength, conditioning and injury prevention/mitigation. The Orioles place a huge emphasis on this.

...

I'm certain that your right re: intent, but has all of this stuff resulted in injury prevention? It certainly sounds good, but the injuries are still high aren't they?

Genuinely asking if anyone knows this.

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, UMDTerrapins said:

Good points. Hall’s usage will be interesting. I’m sure they’ll have a low pitch limit per start so they can spread out his innings over the full season. Sure sounds like they don’t think he needs much more time in the minors. I don’t either. Might be good for his development if he’s only taking two turns through the order anyhow. And force him to locate more so he can last deeper into games. That’s the great thing about spring training….everything is a positive. Until it’s not. 

Yea, I would guess he isn't going 5 innings for at least 6 weeks.  Im going to guess he has an 80ish pitch limit for the whole season this year.  Pitch 90-110 innings.

[Tony-OH]

51 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Signing Lyles AND Davies would have been dumb.  Signing Davies instead of Lyles would have been better.  

Fair. I really haven't looked at Davies stuff last year to determine whether it would work or not in the AL East. As for Lyles, again, the improvements in the slider were obvious last September so apparently the Orioles are a believer that it will play. 

I haven't seen him all spring in a statcast game all spring so it's really hard to say. 

[Tony-OH]

42 minutes ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

Because young arms will get hurt/overworked and then you will be forced to bring up more young arms and hurt their development. Johnny Cueto still out there. Plenty of options for minor league contracts too.

like this guy: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/03/brewers-sign-jose-urena-to-minor-league-deal.html

or Archer.

I strongly believe this is a huge and dangerous step by Elias, irresponsible even.

We'll have to see how it works out, but I think Elias has enough of those guys that should be ready to pitch in the major leagues that he won't have to go to the Spenser Watkins of the world to eat innings. 

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

Because young arms will get hurt/overworked and then you will be forced to bring up more young arms and hurt their development. Johnny Cueto still out there. Plenty of options for minor league contracts too.

like this guy: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/03/brewers-sign-jose-urena-to-minor-league-deal.html

or Archer.

I strongly believe this is a huge and dangerous step by Elias, irresponsible even.

We have plenty of guys. We actually had the opposite problem last year where guys like Lowther got pushed around to bullpen or AAA or both due to Means/Harvey/Lopez taking up 3/5 of the rotation. Now we have even more young guys who are ready to get some looks. I wish the veteran was someone better than Lyles but I don't think I would be on board with filling the rotation with more veterans.