Vavra/Henderson/Westburg vs. Odor/Mateo/Urias

[seak05]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

What do people want/expect from SS?  
 

Mateo may very well finish the season with a GG, 14 HR, 40 SB. 

I might want an OPS north of .600

[Sports Guy]

Mountcastle, Urias, Henderson and Westburg.

Mateo is a defensive replacement, starts twice a week at SS and even gets OF time.

Vavra can come up and see time all over, including DH.

Vavra doesn’t need to play everyday to come up.  He can play 2-3 games a week And that’s fine.

[ScGO's]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

What do people want/expect from SS?  
 

Mateo may very well finish the season with a GG, 14 HR, 40 SB. 
 

I think Mateo is a keeper at SS. We play Gunnar at 3B. Westburg at 2B. Draft Holliday. Urias is Util. Vavra is a bench player. 
 

It’s easy to just predict that players come up and put up .800 OPSs immediately. Westburg didn’t do that in AA last year upon promotion, neither did Gunnar in A+

I think projected infield should be the goal going into 2023.  I think Vavra needs to come up now to see what he can offer though. Mateo needs to be given the rest of the year to see if he can make any strides with the offense. If he doesn't then maybe Westburg or Hendreson takes his place next year and Mateo becomes super utility. I think next year, Urias becomes your DH and fills in while the rest of the IF gets breaks in the DH spot.

Someone mentioned sending down McKenna. I think he should be the #4 OF. He has value as a PR and Def Replacement. Arauz is the one that needs to be sent down to season more. Looking at his career, he's never really had time to put it together in the higher levels of the minors.  He's still young and I believe he has an option. If not, I still think he would pass through.

[oldfan]

Whoever is brought up needs to put some life into the offense, like really, it has struggled for most of the season. There is not one player having what you would call a great year. Lately its been big hits at the right time that has fueled the hot streak, not a consistent attack. Too many K's and unproductive at bats, leadoff doubles or first and third one out with no runs scored.

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

11 hours ago, ScGO's said:

I think projected infield should be the goal going into 2023.  I think Vavra needs to come up now to see what he can offer though. Mateo needs to be given the rest of the year to see if he can make any strides with the offense. If he doesn't then maybe Westburg or Hendreson takes his place next year and Mateo becomes super utility. I think next year, Urias becomes your DH and fills in while the rest of the IF gets breaks in the DH spot.

Someone mentioned sending down McKenna. I think he should be the #4 OF. He has value as a PR and Def Replacement. Arauz is the one that needs to be sent down to season more. Looking at his career, he's never really had time to put it together in the higher levels of the minors.  He's still young and I believe he has an option. If not, I still think he would pass through.

Yes!!! Absolutely correct on Arauz! Said that when they grabbed him. Bannon & Vavra for Arauz and Nevin?

[Bahama O's Fan]

My only issue with bringing these guys up thinking that they will help the current team is that we don't know how they will do in the majors. For example, guys like Richie Martin and Ryan McKenna tore it up at one point it in the minors but couldn't adjust to MLB play well. We know what we have in Urias, Mateo and yes, even Odor. I'm not sure we need to be replacing all three of them with unproven guys as an attempt to make the playoffs this season. 

[IPlayGM]

18 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

My only issue with bringing these guys up thinking that they will help the current team is that we don't know how they will do in the majors. For example, guys like Richie Martin and Ryan McKenna tore it up at one point it in the minors but couldn't adjust to MLB play well. We know what we have in Urias, Mateo and yes, even Odor. I'm not sure we need to be replacing all three of them with unproven guys as an attempt to make the playoffs this season. 

But that’s the rub for this decision, it’s as much about next year and beyond as it is this year. Getting them up, especially Vavra who is 25, informs you about their ability to help in ‘23. In my opinion, whatever he gives you for this year is a bonus.

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, oldfan said:

Whoever is brought up needs to put some life into the offense, like really, it has struggled for most of the season. There is not one player having what you would call a great year. Lately its been big hits at the right time that has fueled the hot streak, not a consistent attack. Too many K's and unproductive at bats, leadoff doubles or first and third one out with no runs scored.

The offense can always be better, and I want it to improve.  But as I posted yesterday, the offense has been above average every month except April, and the amount by which it has exceeded league average has increased each month.  So, to say the offense has struggled for most of the season is an overstatement.   It could be better, is all.

[Frobby]

17 hours ago, casadeozo said:

Right while hitting .190 and striking out 200 times. GG defense is not a replacement for for being below average at the plate.

False.   Baseball has never changed, it’s a balance between what you contribute with your bat and your glove.  Bb-ref and Fangraphs both have Mateo in the 1.7-1.8 WAR range, above average for a major league starter at this point in the season.  That means his defensive contributions are outweighing his offensive failures.  So yes, being a Gold Glove defender can make up for being below average at the plate.   It’s a matter of just how many runs are being saved by the glove, and just how many runs are being lost with the bat. 

By the way, Rey Ordonez only had one season higher than 1.0 rWAR.   Mateo is contributing much more to the Orioles than Ordonez did to the Mets.  
 

[sportsfan8703]

For the rest of this season,

At 2B - Odor > Vavra

At 3B - Urias > Westburg

I don’t think we call up Gunnar this year.  
 

The lineup is struggling, but here recently the bottom 3 have been doing their parts.  Mullins, Mancini, and Co., need to produce better in the 2nd half.

 

[Morgan423]

19 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Mateo is a defensive replacement, starts twice a week at SS and even gets OF time.

This is where I see Mateo in the end going forward, if he can't improve with the bat. 

An insanely valuable utility guy who still starts all over the place four, maybe five times a week, giving regular weekly or biweekly rest games to several starters, to keep everyone fresh. 

A guy with potentially elite defensive skills at several positions with some practice/repetition, and who will be constantly using that speed to cause headaches for other teams whenever he gets on... it does add quite a bit of value (that offensive stats tend not to look at) when opponents are, in practical terms, giving up a double a large percentage of the time they allow him to reach first base.      

[Matt Bennett]

23 hours ago, Pickles said:

How are things going on that front by the way?

The wins have been coming, thankfully. Little thanks to our replacement level 2B who's hit .196 in July. 

"We're playing good baseball, so Jonathan Arauz and Tyler Nevin are untouchable!"

[Bahama O's Fan]

12 minutes ago, Morgan423 said:

This is where I see Mateo in the end going forward, if he can't improve with the bat. 

An insanely valuable utility guy who still starts all over the place four, maybe five times a week, giving regular weekly or biweekly rest games to several starters, to keep everyone fresh. 

A guy with potentially elite defensive skills at several positions with some practice/repetition, and who will be constantly using that speed to cause headaches for other teams whenever he gets on... it does add quite a bit of value (that offensive stats tend not to look at) when opponents are, in practical terms, giving up a double a large percentage of the time they allow him to reach first base.      

And pinch running off the bench

[Roll Tide]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

False.   Baseball has never changed, it’s a balance between what you contribute with your bat and your glove.  Bb-ref and Fangraphs both have Mateo in the 1.7-1.8 WAR range, above average for a major league starter at this point in the season.  That means his defensive contributions are outweighing his offensive failures.  So yes, being a Gold Glove defender can make up for being below average at the plate.   It’s a matter of just how many runs are being saved by the glove, and just how many runs are being lost with the bat. 

By the way, Rey Ordonez only had one season higher than 1.0 rWAR.   Mateo is contributing much more to the Orioles than Ordonez did to the Mets.  
 

At Vavra’s age he should be here. If he can play an adequate 2B or when you trade Mancini. While he doesn’t have as much power he has had a bat all through the minors

[SilverRocket]

I have some worry about Mateo being the same defensively in a utility role. His defense last year was not at this level, which makes me think it's the everyday reps at the same position that have gotten him the consistency he has now. He's on pace for 2.5-3.5 WAR. Shortstops like that don't grow on trees. When his singles all become doubles, he's better offensively than his numbers look.

I would look to move Urias, or use him as the utility player since he can play three infield positions. I would feel a lot better about giving starters days off when he's the replacement instead of the Nevins of the team.