It's time to play the players of the future

[baltfan]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Buck was an excellent manager when he was here.

He was also largely responsible for the downfall of this team.

How was he responsible for the downfall?  

[DrungoHazewood]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Buck was an excellent manager when he was here.

He was also largely responsible for the downfall of this team.

The primary reason for the downfall of the team was the lack of a productive drafting/development/acquisition system. They didn't have a consistent talent pipeline, and you can only live on Duquette's mortgaging the future for Bud Norrises for so long.

You probably think Buck was scheming with Angelos to make that happen, but for me that's all Angelos-Duquette.  Even if Buck was somehow involved it's all on the guys higher up in the food chain for letting that happen. When something goes wrong in the country the President doesn't get to claim it's all the fault of some cabinet secretary and not him.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, baltfan said:

How was he responsible for the downfall?  

Because he  wanted to keep the team together when it should have been broken up. (Well him and PA)

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The primary reason for the downfall of the team was the lack of a productive drafting/development/acquisition system. They didn't have a consistent talent pipeline, and you can only live on Duquette's mortgaging the future for Bud Norrises for so long.

You probably think Buck was scheming with Angelos to make that happen, but for me that's all Angelos-Duquette.  Even if Buck was somehow involved it's all on the guys higher up in the food chain for letting that happen. When something goes wrong in the country the President doesn't get to claim it's all the fault of some cabinet secretary and not him.

Buck clearly had more clout and respect from PA compared to Duq, especially after the Toronto stuff.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Buck clearly had more clout and respect from PA compared to Duq, especially after the Toronto stuff.

 

If that's the case it's Angelos' failing.  It's his team and he's letting the field manager override the GM? 

Edited September 23, 2022 by DrungoHazewood

[baltfan]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Buck clearly had more clout and respect from PA compared to Duq, especially after the Toronto stuff.

 

Do we have any evidence Buck was picking the players?  Yes Angelos was in win-now mode, but it isn't like that was inexcusable.  Sure it went on a year or so too long, but I am not sure how that is Buck's fault.  Duq also repeatedly made some poor personnel decisions, one of which was not Miller for Rodriguez.

[Sports Guy]

34 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

If that's the case it's Angelos' failing.  It's his team and he's letting the field manager override the GM? 

Sure, I’m always fine with putting it at this ownership groups feet.

But Buck was driving that car.  He wanted to win bad enough that he didn’t care about the long term of the franchise.  Maybe that’s fine for him but it doesn’t mean he didn’t hurt the franchise.

[Sports Guy]

31 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Do we have any evidence Buck was picking the players?  Yes Angelos was in win-now mode, but it isn't like that was inexcusable.  Sure it went on a year or so too long, but I am not sure how that is Buck's fault.  Duq also repeatedly made some poor personnel decisions, one of which was not Miller for Rodriguez.

Yes, he made some bad moves.  He also signed Chen, which is arguably the best FA signing in organizational history.  He found MGon.  He made lots of good moves.

He was an average GM, not bad and not great.

[Can_of_corn]

51 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Earl was under .500 during his comeback.  Brooks had a .539 OPS his last three years.  It happens.  Connie Mack had a losing record overall.

What was the record of the 6-7 managers preceding Buck in Baltimore?

Why you have to take a shot at Brooks?

He was only playing because he had some bad investments and needed the money.

I said it's mostly about the talent.  Does anyone think Hyde is suddenly a greatly improved manager this season over last?

Buck was a fine manager whose main strength was his ability to handle the media.

He did have a fabulous year managing the pen in 2012.  He also left Britton on the bench in a do or die game.

Same guy did both things.

 

[Can_of_corn]

47 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The primary reason for the downfall of the team was the lack of a productive drafting/development/acquisition system. They didn't have a consistent talent pipeline, and you can only live on Duquette's mortgaging the future for Bud Norrises for so long.

You probably think Buck was scheming with Angelos to make that happen, but for me that's all Angelos-Duquette.  Even if Buck was somehow involved it's all on the guys higher up in the food chain for letting that happen. When something goes wrong in the country the President doesn't get to claim it's all the fault of some cabinet secretary and not him.

If I'm the cabinet secretary and I give him bad advice should I not shoulder some of the blame?

[Frobby]

27 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, he made some bad moves.  He also signed Chen, which is arguably the best FA signing in organizational history.  He found MGon.  He made lots of good moves.

He was an average GM, not bad and not great.

Duq did sign Chen, but he was targeted before Duq was hired.  First time I ever heard of Chen was a report here of Buck mentioning him at some offseason dinner speech, during the period between MacPhail leaving and Duq being hired.  

Duq had his pros and cons.  He made numerous good decisions and moves.  I just don’t like it when people make excuses for the bad decisions and moves made during his tenure.  And I do feel he was part of the “win now, damn the future” mentality that put us in the hole we eventually found ourselves in 2018.   That wasn’t shoved down his throat.  
 

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Duq did sign Chen, but he was targeted before Duq was hired.  First time I ever heard of Chen was a report here of Buck mentioning him at some offseason dinner speech, during the period between MacPhail leaving and Duq being hired.  

Duq had his pros and cons.  He made numerous good decisions and moves.  I just don’t like it when people make excuses for the bad decisions and moves made during his tenure.  And I do feel he was part of the “win now, damn the future” mentality that put us in the hole we eventually found ourselves in 2018.   That wasn’t shoved down his throat.  
 

And I don’t like when people act like Buck wasn’t culpable in the mess that was the organization after he left.  

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And I don’t like when people act like Buck wasn’t culpable in the mess that was the organization after he left.  

Obviously he was.  Let’s face it, ownership created a dysfunctional organizational structure and there’s a ton of blame to go around.  I don’t feel like reliving and rehashing it.  It certainly seems that the organization is properly structured now, and I’m glad of that.   No more palace intrigue.  

[DrungoHazewood]

51 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If I'm the cabinet secretary and I give him bad advice should I not shoulder some of the blame?

Sure, but the decision maker is the decision maker.  I'm a director in an organization, I have branch heads and a chief engineer and a whole bunch of other people supporting me.  When something goes wrong the higher ups call me, and I am responsible.  Sure, the narrative includes someone below me didn't do their job, but it's my organization, I am the one who gets to fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again, and if it was bad enough my job is on the line.  It's a very poor leader who doesn't take responsibility for their organization and the decisions that are made.

[DrungoHazewood]

29 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Duq did sign Chen, but he was targeted before Duq was hired.  First time I ever heard of Chen was a report here of Buck mentioning him at some offseason dinner speech, during the period between MacPhail leaving and Duq being hired.  

Duq had his pros and cons.  He made numerous good decisions and moves.  I just don’t like it when people make excuses for the bad decisions and moves made during his tenure.  And I do feel he was part of the “win now, damn the future” mentality that put us in the hole we eventually found ourselves in 2018.   That wasn’t shoved down his throat.  
 

Plenty of blame to go around, but the Orioles had 20+ years to build a modern, self-sustaining organization under Angelos and nobody did it until Elias, and that was when Pete was removed from the day-to-day operations of the team.  There were many, many GMs, managers and other front office staff from the early 90s until 2017 and none of them did that.

It's mostly circumstantial evidence, but it has always appeared that Peter Angelos had no intention of ever substantially investing in minor league infrastructure, international signings, scouting, analysis or any of the other things necessary for a successful Major League organization.