It's time to play the players of the future

[Tony-OH]

On 9/11/2022 at 5:30 PM, Tony-OH said:

Stowers has hit lefties his entire minor league career. It's one of the things I've always like about him.

One of the weird things is Hyde's refusal to let Stowers face lefties. He has just one PA against them this year (he was hit by pitch). He actually hit lefties better than rights this year in AAA slashing .326/.430/.547/.977 in 114 PAs vs lefties vs .240/.329/.520/.849.

One of things liked I've always liked about Stowers is he's always hit lefties as well or better than righties, but for some reason, Hyde or whoever sets the lineup is treating him like he's a platoon guy. 

There is no reason Aguilar should be DHing any games while Stowers sits the bench. Stowers needs to be given every day PAs the rest of the season and see how he does.

It's just been very strange how Stowers has been used.

[Bahama O's Fan]

Aguilar, Odor and Chirrinos should not see the field for the rest of this season except for injury or a pinch hit. I know this won't happen because day games and they think AR can't handle it.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Aguilar, Odor and Chirrinos should not see the field for the rest of this season except for injury or a pinch hit. I know this won't happen because day games and they think AR can't handle it.

I don't agree that Adley needs to catch every game for the rest of the season.

I would make it a point to play him against left handed pitching to get him some more at bats from that side.

[Orioles Jim]

I got this shot at the game last night, figured you all might enjoy:

[Brooks The Great]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

One of the weird things is Hyde's refusal to let Stowers face lefties. He has just one PA against them this year (he was hit by pitch). He actually hit lefties better than rights this year in AAA slashing .326/.430/.547/.977 in 114 PAs vs lefties vs .240/.329/.520/.849.

One of things liked I've always liked about Stowers is he's always hit lefties as well or better than righties, but for some reason, Hyde or whoever sets the lineup is treating him like he's a platoon guy. 

There is no reason Aguilar should be DHing any games while Stowers sits the bench. Stowers needs to be given every day PAs the rest of the season and see how he does.

It's just been very strange how Stowers has been used.

Totally agree. 

It's not really strange how Stowers has been used. He's just been used poorly and mismanaged. It's one of the few reasons I don't think Hyde is the long-term answer as manager of this team as it transitions to a perennial playoff contenders The preference for veterans is one of the reasons Buck Showalter was/is a mediocre manager and one of the reasons why he ultimately got fired.

The only area Hyde is better than Buck was is with bullpen management. Both were/are awful managers for lineup optimization and quickly making needed roster changes (for example, Hyde benching Odor, Buck moving Hardy out of the 2 hole, etc.) to help the team.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Brooks The Great

[Just Regular]

I wonder if Urias is just a little tired.

Last offseason, I remember feeling like "don't play winter ball" because he'd shown enough I was interested to see what would happen in 450 PA.     The last two weeks, part of the fabric of the game is the thousand yard stares and things like Jordan Lyles throwing complete games happening.

Now that I've seen Urias get a full season of at-bats, the answer to the question of is this a player I hope gets 450 PA again is unclear.    Regular run helps any player get settled.     For Opening Day 2023, each of Gunnar, Mateo, Westburg and RMC are guys I'm more interested in seeing have the first string roles.

 

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Brooks The Great said:

Totally agree. 

It's not really strange how Stowers has been used. He's just been used poorly and mismanaged. It's one of the few reasons I don't think Hyde is the long-term answer as manager of this team as it transitions to a perennial playoff contenders The preference for veterans is one of the reasons Buck Showalter was/is a mediocre manager and one of the reasons why he ultimately got fired.

The only area Hyde is better than Buck was is with bullpen management. Both were/are awful managers for lineup optimization and quickly making needed roster changes (for example, Hyde benching Odor, Buck moving Hardy out of the 2 hole, etc.) to help the team.

I disagree with so much of this.  First of all, every manager I’ve ever seen moves rookies into the lineup more slowly than some fans want.  Hyde’s not unique in this, nor was Buck.  

Second, Buck was very good at bullpen management.  Take a look at the stats of his 2012-16 bullpens.  The proof is in the pudding. Hyde’s had a great year managing the bullpen, no doubt.  I don’t think he’s done a better job than Buck, but he’s been as good.   As always, good performance by the bullpen makes any manager look like a genius. 

I’m not saying I agree with every decision Hyde made about who to play, or every decision Buck made about when to change pitchers.   But I think they both did a very good job overall.   I do think Buck got a little behind the times towards the end of his time with the team, and his inability to choose and retain good pitching coaches bothered me.  Hyde doesn’t have those problems.  


 

[jdwilde1]

13 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

If Urias is your super utility player off the bench (and starting regularly only in case of an injury to one of the young IFs), you're a playoff team. If Urias is your starting 2B, 3B, or SS, you're most likely a .500ish team or worse.

I do not agree with the quote above. Assuming that over a full season Urias would get 550 ABs as a starter and 250 ABs as a super-utility there is a 300 AB difference. Assuming that it will take about 88 wins to be a playoff team, we are looking at an 6-8 game difference between playoffs and being .500ish. So, about 300 ABs of Urias is potentially an eight game swing? Even assuming his play craters to being replacement level, you would need to replace him with a 12-16 WAR guy. 
 

Even if you do not buy into the WAR values, that take seems to be over the top.  

[Brooks The Great]

13 hours ago, Frobby said:

I disagree with so much of this.  First of all, every manager I’ve ever seen moves rookies into the lineup more slowly than some fans want.  Hyde’s not unique in this, nor was Buck.  

Second, Buck was very good at bullpen management.  Take a look at the stats of his 2012-16 bullpens.  The proof is in the pudding. Hyde’s had a great year managing the bullpen, no doubt.  I don’t think he’s done a better job than Buck, but he’s been as good.   As always, good performance by the bullpen makes any manager look like a genius. 

I’m not saying I agree with every decision Hyde made about who to play, or every decision Buck made about when to change pitchers.   But I think they both did a very good job overall.   I do think Buck got a little behind the times towards the end of his time with the team, and his inability to choose and retain good pitching coaches bothered me.  Hyde doesn’t have those problems.  


 

You clearly don't remember how Buck completely botched Jim Johnson in 2013, which cost us a playoff spot. You also clearly don't remember Buck costing the Orioles in 2016 against the playoffs against Toronto by inexplicably going to Ubaldo Jimenez instead of Zach Britton in one of the worst managerial moves of all time, regardless of sport. And you definitely don't remember Buck habitually and consistently sticking with starters way too long into the 5th and 6th innings, costing the Orioles countless games.

Buck was and is a dinosaur of a manager, and stubborn to a fault. All the analytics that show that starting pitchers are no good the third time through the lineup - Buck completely disregarded all those statistics and was the total antithesis of understanding a starting pitcher tiring after a certain amount of pitches.

Completely disagree with you across the board. Buck was an awful manager, and I'm glad he's long gone.

[glenn__davis]

7 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

You clearly don't remember how Buck completely botched Jim Johnson in 2013, which cost us a playoff spot. You also clearly don't remember Buck costing the Orioles in 2016 against the playoffs against Toronto by inexplicably going to Ubaldo Jimenez instead of Zach Britton in one of the worst managerial moves of all time, regardless of sport. And you definitely don't remember Buck habitually and consistently sticking with starters way too long into the 5th and 6th innings, costing the Orioles countless games.

Buck was and is a dinosaur of a manager, and stubborn to a fault. All the analytics that show that starting pitchers are no good the third time through the lineup - Buck completely disregarded all those statistics and was the total antithesis of understanding a starting pitcher tiring after a certain amount of pitches.

Completely disagree with you across the board. Buck was an awful manager, and I'm glad he's long gone.

Aw man - I had agreed with much of what you wrote in this thread until this post haha.

Buck did a terrific job here.  His biggest sin was convincing Dan to keep the band together for 1 year longer than he should have, which ended up having disastrous consequences, but I don't blame him for going for it once more.  Will be pulling for the Mets in a big way this postseason, he deserves a ring.

[DrungoHazewood]

On 9/22/2022 at 12:08 AM, Brooks The Great said:

 If Urias is your starting 2B, 3B, or SS, you're most likely a .500ish team or worse.

If I really needed to I guarantee I could find 30 playoff teams who started worse players than Urias at one of those spots.  Urias is in the midst of a 3-win season, and over his career he's been worth 4.1 war per 162 games.  Let's just say he's over his head and is actually just an average, 2-win player.

Just look at last year's Yankees. They won 92 games with Gleyber Torres (93 OPS+) at short, DJ LeMahieu (97 OPS+) at second, and Gio Urshela (96 OPS+) at third. Urias' career marks are as good as any of those guy were last year. The Cards won 90 with Tommy Edman and Paul Delong at 2B/SS.  The 92-win Red Sox didn't really have a regular second baseman, splitting it between a number of random bodies.

Lots and lots of very good teams have made do (if you want to call it that) with a good glove, average-hitting infielder.

[DrungoHazewood]

7 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

You clearly don't remember how Buck completely botched Jim Johnson in 2013, which cost us a playoff spot. You also clearly don't remember Buck costing the Orioles in 2016 against the playoffs against Toronto by inexplicably going to Ubaldo Jimenez instead of Zach Britton in one of the worst managerial moves of all time, regardless of sport. And you definitely don't remember Buck habitually and consistently sticking with starters way too long into the 5th and 6th innings, costing the Orioles countless games.

Buck was and is a dinosaur of a manager, and stubborn to a fault. All the analytics that show that starting pitchers are no good the third time through the lineup - Buck completely disregarded all those statistics and was the total antithesis of understanding a starting pitcher tiring after a certain amount of pitches.

Completely disagree with you across the board. Buck was an awful manager, and I'm glad he's long gone.

That's frankly a ridiculous take. The 2012 Orioles made the playoffs primarily because their bullpen, managed by Buck, set an all-time record up to that date for highest WPA by a bullpen.  The 2014 Orioles won 96 games in the AL East with a rotation that included Chris Tillman, Wei-Yin Chen, Bud Norris, Miguel Gonzales, Ubaldo... that could be the rotation of a team that wins 73 games.  Zach Britton had several of the best relief seasons in franchise history under Buck. You savage Buck for his handling of Jim Johnson... Johnson was just a random guy with a low strikeout rate and a 4-something ERA before Buck managed him to consecutive 50-save seasons. It would be like Hyde somehow getting 100 saves out of Bryan Baker in two years.  Don't forget that Buck took over the 2010 Orioles and got more wins out of them in the last 57 games than Trembley and Samuel had in the previous 105.

He won the 2014 Manager of the Year, certainly should have in '12, and got votes in several other years with the O's.

I think objectively Buck has a case for being the 2nd-best manager in modern Orioles history.  It's down to him and a number of guys who had shorter tenures and inherited better teams, and maybe Paul Richards.

Edited September 23, 2022 by DrungoHazewood

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Don't forget that Buck took over the 2010 Orioles and got more wins out of them in the last 57 games than Trembley and Samuel had in the previous 105.

I think objectively Buck has a case for being the 2nd-best manager in modern Orioles history.  It's down to him and a number of guys who had shorter tenures and inherited better teams, and maybe Paul Richards.

Don't forget that Buck ended up with a 669-684 record with the O's.

It's mostly about the talent, but that 2018 team had a lot of talent on it to be that bad.

I suspect he checked out of that season with everyone else.

[DrungoHazewood]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Don't forget that Buck ended up with a 669-684 record with the O's.

It's mostly about the talent, but that 2018 team had a lot of talent on it to be that bad.

I suspect he checked out of that season with everyone else.

Earl was under .500 during his comeback.  Brooks had a .539 OPS his last three years.  It happens.  Connie Mack had a losing record overall.

What was the record of the 6-7 managers preceding Buck in Baltimore?

[Sports Guy]

Buck was an excellent manager when he was here.

He was also largely responsible for the downfall of this team.