It's time to play the players of the future

[Can_of_corn]

I think it is very possible that Stowers, and Vavra, are fringe guys.  Would be nice to get some more data before the season is over to help inform the decisions for next season.

[Moose Milligan]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it is very possible that Stowers, and Vavra, are fringe guys.   

 

 

[Tony-OH]

45 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think we all hate seeing him on the bench, but it's pretty apparent as to what's going on.  

Stowers has a good amount of swing and miss in his game.  He's already struck out 15 times, has walked 3 times in Baltimore.  And before anyone goes MOOSE TEH SAMPLLLZ SIZZZE IS 222222 SMALL yes, I agree.  It's entirely too small.

But it's also not a giant departure from what he's done in the minors, he strikes out at a pretty good clip to compared how he walks.  His defense, as pointed out by @Tony-OHisn't great.  He doesn't really pass the "Is he smooth?" eye test and the advanced statcast stuff isn't kind to him, either.

Now I agree that I want to see him in the lineup every day, I want to see more of his hitting approach and I want to see if he can get to his power at all.  IMO, the playoff race is over, we need to see what we have in guys like Vavra and Stowers.

But like I said, it's pretty apparent as to what's going on; it's obvious to me that if a guy doesn't do anything particularly well he's either not being strongly considered or they're going to make him ride the bench and work on things until he gets where he needs to be.  I have no doubt in my mind that if Stowers was elite in the outfield he'd have been playing more.  I also have no doubt in my mind that if he had an approach and a walk-rate like Rutschman, he'd be playing more even if his defense was still sub-par.  

It sucks, but I think that's what is happening here.  We can banter back and forth about what's best for players and what we'd prefer to see but it's also apparent that they have their way of doing things.  And again, I agree that it sucks because we're fans and we don't get to see what we want to see immediately, such as Stowers being in the lineup every day.  

Sounds like you've identified him a a bust already. I'm going to disagree. He needs to be playing every day. he will make the adjustments and his EVs will start to shine through. Playing once ever y 3 to 4 days is tough on guys who have never done that. 

Stowers cut his K rate down significantly in AAA this year and yes, he's got some swing and miss in his game, but this is the time to get him the experience to see if he can be a starter next year. 

[Tony-OH]

22 minutes ago, SteveA said:

I think the reason he's on the bench is more defense than offensive potential.   I think they feel he is worse in the OF than Santander and probably doesn't provide as much with the bat.   I think the reason he and Vavra are sitting, and Odor is playing alot, is primarily defense.   Or at least the organization's opinion of their defense.

Insert obligatory 1000th comment from CofC "but they played Mancini out there".   I know, that doesn't seem to gibe with what I am saying.   If you expect human beings to behave in a completely consistent logical fashion at all times you will be constantly disappointed.  But I guess that was a combination of them feeling Mancini's bat merited getting him in the lineup in different ways even at the expense of defense, and I don't think they feel that way with Stowers and Vavra.

I think that Stowers and Vavra are sitting primarily because their defense is believed to be sub-par, and they did poorly in the limited ABs they have gotten so there's no motivation to suck it up with the bad defense in order to get their bats in the lineup.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I believe is happening.

It may be, and with Vavra, he might be a tweener guy who's only real skill with be his hit tool (even though he's struggled of late) but it's way too early to give up on Stowers. He needs to e playing everyday and if that means Hays gets an extra day of here and there then he he needs to take the day off. this about gaining Stowers experience, he's not getting that wallowing on the bench when the season is done from a playoff standpoint.

Stowers defense has been sub par, but he's also played a lot of LF with the Orioles after mainly playing RF in the minors. Add in the second decks and I think he'll get better with experience, even though I'm not convinced he'll ever be a good defensive outfielder.

Heck, Stowers can DH for all I care though I rather see him in RF to see if he improves, but his bat needs to be in the lineup just about every day. And BTW, maybe Hyde doesn't know, but Stowers hit lefties quite well in the minors. 

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Sounds like you've identified him a a bust already. I'm going to disagree. He needs to be playing every day. he will make the adjustments and his EVs will start to shine through. Playing once ever y 3 to 4 days is tough on guys who have never done that. 

Stowers cut his K rate down significantly in AAA this year and yes, he's got some swing and miss in his game, but this is the time to get him the experience to see if he can be a starter next year. 

I think you missed the part where I said, "Now I agree that I want to see him in the lineup every day," 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Absolutely agree, and I think he is better than the "worse in baseball" numbers he's put up so far, but his performance does match my eye test from watching him in the minors. He's not going to be a good defensive outfielder at this point, so again, I hope they convert him to first base.

Here’s what you said in last Fall’s write up:

“Defensively Stowers doesn’t have the quickest first step and his routes can sometimes take the scenic route, but he runs well on the go and he catches everything he gets to. He’s got a solid average right fielders arm, and should end up a solid average defensive right fielder with more experience at the position.”

https://orioleshangout.com/7-kyle-stowers/

Honestly it sounds like you’re more negative on his defense now compared to last year. You had him at 45/50 in the field.  Eric Longenhagen had him at 50/55 and commented “[h]e’s a solid athlete who runs well and has enough arm for right field.”   I wonder if he has slowed down for some reason.  In any event, I’d like to see more before consigning him to 1B.   

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I think you missed the part where I said, "Now I agree that I want to see him in the lineup every day," 

Then you went about trashing him for 3-4 paragraphs. Look, I get it, you are one of those fans that is affected on a game by game basis with players. You always kinda have been, but I'm just saying that the way Stowers has been used, it's hard to get a read on him at the major league level. 

Now saying that, I do not necessarily think Stowers is going to be an all-star,  but I can see him putting up Santander-like numbers offensively and for a cheaper price. My question is whether his defensive in the outfield can improve enough or if he can successfully be converted to first base. He's not going to be a high average guy, and he's a bit streaky, but he will hit for some power when it's said and done. 

 

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Then you went about trashing him for 3-4 paragraphs. Look, I get it, you are one of those fans that is affected on a game by game basis with players. You always kinda have been, but I'm just saying that the way Stowers has been used, it's hard to get a read on him at the major league level. 

Now saying that, I do not necessarily think Stowers is going to be an all-star,  but I can see him putting up Santander-like numbers offensively and for a cheaper price. My question is whether his defensive in the outfield can improve enough or if he can successfully be converted to first base. He's not going to be a high average guy, and he's a bit streaky, but he will hit for some power when it's said and done. 

 

I don't think I really trashed him, but I did a decent job of pointing out the flaws in his game and cited them as a reason as to why I think he's on the bench.  A move, which again, I disagree with.  

[Tony-OH]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Here’s what you said in last Fall’s write up:

“Defensively Stowers doesn’t have the quickest first step and his routes can sometimes take the scenic route, but he runs well on the go and he catches everything he gets to. He’s got a solid average right fielders arm, and should end up a solid average defensive right fielder with more experience at the position.”

https://orioleshangout.com/7-kyle-stowers/

Honestly it sounds like you’re more negative on his defense now compared to last year. You had him at 45/50 in the field.  Eric Longenhagen had him at 50/55 and commented “[h]e’s a solid athlete who runs well and has enough arm for right field.”   I wonder if he has slowed down for some reason.  In any event, I’d like to see more before consigning him to 1B.   

I have more data on him now. It's really hard to judge defense in the minors especially on MILBTv where you don't always get good camera angles on jumps or routes. It's more of a feel thing for me or how I see them moving on the outfield. If i had to put him down now for outfield defense, I'd probably put him as a 40/45 after seeing his burst numbers, feet coved per second, and running speed on bases. 

Saying that, I'm all for sticking him out in RF the rest of the year and seeing if the numbers improve. I'm all about giving him that experience over the next 22 games and then make a decision on him this offseason on his future position. With no true first base prospects in the system, somebody will need to convert unless the team is willing to keep running out a 1.0 WAR first baseman that has regressed.

[SteveA]

16 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

It may be, and with Vavra, he might be a tweener guy who's only real skill with be his hit tool (even though he's struggled of late) but it's way too early to give up on Stowers. He needs to e playing everyday and if that means Hays gets an extra day of here and there then he he needs to take the day off. this about gaining Stowers experience, he's not getting that wallowing on the bench when the season is done from a playoff standpoint.

Stowers defense has been sub par, but he's also played a lot of LF with the Orioles after mainly playing RF in the minors. Add in the second decks and I think he'll get better with experience, even though I'm not convinced he'll ever be a good defensive outfielder.

Heck, Stowers can DH for all I care though I rather see him in RF to see if he improves, but his bat needs to be in the lineup just about every day. And BTW, maybe Hyde doesn't know, but Stowers hit lefties quite well in the minors. 

You've made the determination that the season is done form a playoff standpoint.

I don't think Hyde has yet.  And he probably won't until we leave Canada Sunday.   If we haven't picked up at least 2 or 3 games on the Jays by Sunday, then I think next week you will start to see the kind of moves you would see once the team is out of contention.

[Tony-OH]

Just now, SteveA said:

You've made the determination that the season is done form a playoff standpoint.

I don't think Hyde has yet.  And he probably won't until we leave Canada Sunday.   If we haven't picked up at least 2 or 3 games on the Jays by Sunday, then I think next week you will start to see the kind of moves you would see once the team is out of contention.

I don't think it matters what Hyde thinks when it comes to the lineup because I'm fairly convinced he's given a lineup that's spit out by Sig's computer. Hyde manages every game to win, but I also think he's too much into veteranosity and pitchers splits more than hitter splits. I wish he was more into getting guys major league experience that will help the team make decision next year or help the team be better next year, but again, who knows how much control he has over lineups and moves.

[casadeozo]

13 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't think it matters what Hyde thinks when it comes to the lineup because I'm fairly convinced he's given a lineup that's spit out by Sig's computer. Hyde manages every game to win, but I also think he's too much into veteranosity and pitchers splits more than hitter splits. I wish he was more into getting guys major league experience that will help the team make decision next year or help the team be better next year, but again, who knows how much control he has over lineups and moves.

If this is the case wouldn't Sigs computer say playing Stowers over Hays gives the team the best chance to win?

[Tony-OH]

11 minutes ago, casadeozo said:

If this is the case wouldn't Sigs computer say playing Stowers over Hays gives the team the best chance to win?

Apparently not the way the lineups have been coming out. But I honestly don't know how the lineups are filled out besides "It's a collaborative process" coming from Hyde years ago.

[eddie83]

Maybe the Orioles aren’t that high on Stowers.  Perhaps he could be a part of a trade package. 

[Gurgi]

At least Stowers seems a little better than DJ Stewart.  And Stowers was only a third round pick and DJ went in the  back of the first round.   After seeing DJ field I could never understand how they could draft him that high.  He was a black hole on defense.