It's time to play the players of the future

[RZNJ]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And I don’t like when people act like Buck wasn’t culpable in the mess that was the organization after he left.  

Can you find one poster here who doesn’t think Buck is partly responsible for the aftermath of 2012-2016?    Who are these people you talk about?

Angelos denied competitive involvement in Latin America.  DD made win now moves, didn’t have the best possible minor league or major league coaching in place and oversaw a minor league system that was ok.

Buck was happy with the win now philosophy. How much he was involved in trades, drafting, coaching staffs, etc, is pure conjecture.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Sure, I’m always fine with putting it at this ownership groups feet.

But Buck was driving that car.  He wanted to win bad enough that he didn’t care about the long term of the franchise.  Maybe that’s fine for him but it doesn’t mean he didn’t hurt the franchise.

That's fair.  But if I were a 60-year-old manager I probably wouldn't be an advocate for trading a bunch of assets so that we might win again when I'm 66.  I'm going to get fired eventually, all managers are, so let's kick that can as far down the road as I can.

That's one of the reasons you don't have the manager also be the GM. Someone needs to be in charge whose main goal isn't to keep the manager as long as possible.

Edited September 23, 2022 by DrungoHazewood

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

That's fair.  But if I were a 60-year-old manager I probably wouldn't be an advocate for trading a bunch of assets so that we might win again when I'm 66.  I'm going to get fired eventually, all managers are, so let's kick that can as far down the road as I can.

That's one of the reasons you don't have the manager also be the GM. Someone needs to be in charge whose main goal isn't to keep the manager as long as possible.

I understand that he wants to be selfish but that selfishness screwed the franchise as much as it helped it.

I’m glad we had him.  He was great.  I just wish we made the right moves after 2016 and if that meant Buck left, so be it.  

Edited September 23, 2022 by Sports Guy

[baltfan]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, he made some bad moves.  He also signed Chen, which is arguably the best FA signing in organizational history.  He found MGon.  He made lots of good moves.

He was an average GM, not bad and not great.

Agree he was an average GM.  I don't know how much credit he gets for Chen.  That was in the pipeline before he came here.  As a matter of fact, I remember he was asked about Chen and said he didn't know who he was (I don't think this was a head fake BTW).  

[RZNJ]

This organization was never going to be “normal” “well run” or operating in the 21st century as long as Peter Angelos was calling the shots.   Simple as that.

Great timing in the American League East, some high draft picks, and some shrewd/lucky moves made us competitive and interesting for 4 years.  The infrastructure for consistent long term success was never in place.

Edited September 23, 2022 by RZNJ

[Moose Milligan]

Are you guys really rehashing the Buck and DD fallout?  

What's next, talking about the Davey Johnson firing?

[MurphDogg]

I am glad that Odor has only made one start in the last 5 games, although I am disheartened that Aguilar has made 3 starts in the same stretch. Looking forward to next season when our roster will hopefully be cleared of sub-replacement players, or at least clear of players who we know are sub-replacement players at the time we acquire them like with Odor and Aguilar. If we are going to carry a player who ends up at a sub-replacement level, he should at least have upside.

Urias will likely be the oldest position player on the roster next season and he won't be 29 until June (assuming they go with a younger backup catcher) and Austin Voth and Joey Krehbiel will likely be the only pitchers older than 29 (with Tate the only 29 year-old), unless we sign an older starter to fill out the rotation. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by MurphDogg

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, baltfan said:

Agree he was an average GM.  I don't know how much credit he gets for Chen.  That was in the pipeline before he came here.  As a matter of fact, I remember he was asked about Chen and said he didn't know who he was (I don't think this was a head fake BTW).  

I think it was a head fake.

[DrungoHazewood]

10 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

You also clearly don't remember Buck costing the Orioles in 2016 against the playoffs against Toronto by inexplicably going to Ubaldo Jimenez instead of Zach Britton in one of the worst managerial moves of all time, regardless of sport.

To put this in context, prior to bringing in Ubaldo the Orioles had a 42% chance of winning that game.  58% chance of losing it, just based on the inning/out/baserunner state combination.

Even if you think that the O's had a 50-50 shot at beating each of the Rangers, Indians, and Cubs in the succeeding series that year Buck's choice lowered the odds that they'd get to a sequence of events they had about a 12% of getting through. In reality they would have been underdogs in each of those series.

He should have used Britton, absolutely.  But odds are they lose that game anyway, and 90%+ odds they lose one of the other series that followed. "one of the worst" could literally mean anything, but I hardly think this reaches the depths the Orioles' fanbase thinks it does.

Certainly no worse, for example, than Gene Mauch starting Jim Bunning five times in the last 12 games in '64 as the Phils blew a 6-game lead in eight days.

[DrungoHazewood]

7 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

Looking forward to next season when our roster will hopefully be cleared of sub-replacement players.

I understand the sentiment, but almost every team has multiple sub-replacement players.  The '01 Mariners that won 116 games had five players (including four pitchers) who were at least 0.2 wins below replacement.

[DrungoHazewood]

11 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Are you guys really rehashing the Buck and DD fallout?  

What's next, talking about the Davey Johnson firing?

Nah.  Davey was abrasive and loved to tell everyone how smart he is, hard to get along with and picked his nose.  He was never going to be a 10-year manager.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Nah.  Davey was abrasive and loved to tell everyone how smart he is, hard to get along with and picked his nose.  He was never going to be a 10-year manager.

Sounds like you can smell your own there, Drungo.

Zing!   Them's just jokes.  

Edited September 23, 2022 by Moose Milligan

[eddie83]

14 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Are you guys really rehashing the Buck and DD fallout?  

What's next, talking about the Davey Johnson firing?

What about Jon Miller?

[eddie83]

12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think it was a head fake.

Yep 

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, eddie83 said:

What about Jon Miller?

Not a manager, but sure, as long as we're living in the past here you guys can prattle on about him, too.