"Moves that completely befuddle us" 2022-23 offseason edition

[LA2]

16 hours ago, Bahama O's Fan said:

Hoping this is the offseason that I don't think, "Who is that guy?"

Did you know who Cionel Perez, Jordan Lyles or Felix Bautista were?

[Frobby]

18 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Maybe this is some weird way to get guys under contract as cheaply as possible into the system

Just spitballing here, but maybe Elias thinks that if he dumps these guys off the 40-man roster close to the time of the Rule 5 draft, no team will claim them (or at least, 1 or 2 of them) and he’ll be able to outright them to Norfolk.  (Not Bemboom, who I think will be a MiL free agent if not on the 40-man.)

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, LA2 said:

Did you know who Cionel Perez, Jordan Lyles or Felix Bautista were?

I think most of us knew about Bautista (not necessarily that we would be so good). Good point though, if Elias does grab another Perez/Baker/Mateo that is a major coup. The question now is whether there is room on the 40 man to mess around with experiments and "opportunity" guys.

[Aristotelian]

49 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Just spitballing here, but maybe Elias thinks that if he dumps these guys off the 40-man roster close to the time of the Rule 5 draft, no team will claim them (or at least, 1 or 2 of them) and he’ll be able to outright them to Norfolk.  (Not Bemboom, who I think will be a MiL free agent if not on the 40-man.)

I don't think that's spitballing at all. That makes a lot more sense than Elias intending to keep multiple backup C's on the 40 man into the regular season. I also agree with above, he probably put in claims on both hoping to get one.

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I think most of us knew about Bautista (not necessarily that we would be so good). Good point though, if Elias does grab another Perez/Baker/Mateo that is a major coup. The question now is whether there is room on the 40 man to mess around with experiments and "opportunity" guys.

Harder to do when you’re in the middle of the waiver claim list rather than at the top.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

We just don’t know why they do things sometimes. Every team makes moves that the fans don’t understand. With what they have accomplished in Baltimore so far, some of us are inclined to wait and see. Maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. 

Criticizing the GM/manager or whatever, of course that’s fair game. It’s part of being a fan, and it goes with being the GM. Three journeymen catchers added is absolutely puzzling.

But why is it a crazy idea to take a look at low cost options for a possible AAA depth or back up job with the big club? They can still jettison them in a month if it isn’t a good fit. They know all about Bemboom, so that one is the oddest for me. But for the other two, get them to Sarasota and some informal workouts. Talk with them about analytics and pitch selections and sequencing. When they are on your roster, you can do that. Garcia is supposed to be an excellent framer, and that would be a tremendous upgrade to Chirinos.

Is Cave a better bench player than Stowers? IDK, but maybe they want Stowers to play everyday if he doesn’t make the opening day roster in a meaningful role. Can Cave buy some time and provide some limited value in a limited role? Maybe.

Perhaps I’m way off on my speculation. I’m just trying to figure it out like the rest of you, minus the Elias bashing. Trying to find a legitimate reason. I know, that’s crazy talk. Maybe he just does silly things to entertain us message board types in the offseason. 

 

Here's what I don't understand in this line of thinking, how do they "take a look" at them in October when the year is out?

I'm not bashing Elias, I'm questioning his evaluations for major league talent. I've honestly never seen a team ever protect a 33-year AAA back up catcher after the season was done. Evah!!! lol

Look, I'll give him credit for finding guys like Mateo and Urias off the scrap heap, but those were no doubter 1st on the waiver wire queue claims. 

They have done a good job in finding some good pitchers off the waiver wire and I'm a fan of their scouting and development so far for the most part.

I'm not an Elias basher, but I'm also not giving him passes for bad moves or moves that make me question his sanity. Collecting backup catchers in October after the season standpoint just seems very weird to me and the Bemboom and Cave moves are borderline crazy as neither are valuable pieces of any winning team in the future.

I'm going to call them as I see them. If it's a good move, I'll be the first to say it, but he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to evaluating borderline major league talent because he's failed more than he's found success and he's also given up on talent that found great success elsewhere (Evan Phillips and of course Yaz comes to mind).

We're all on the same sheet of music when it comes to saying we doubt these moves mean a lot overall, other than the need to do them. Makes me wonder what other things are they wasting their time on instead of quickly saving a 33-year old back up catcher from potentially becoming a minor league free agent. 

 

[CharmCityHokie]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Just spitballing here, but maybe Elias thinks that if he dumps these guys off the 40-man roster close to the time of the Rule 5 draft, no team will claim them (or at least, 1 or 2 of them) and he’ll be able to outright them to Norfolk.  (Not Bemboom, who I think will be a MiL free agent if not on the 40-man.)

I know if a guy is DFA'd once, he earns the right to decline a second assignment if DFA'd again and can become a free agent, but do we know if he was DFA'd and got claimed, if that counts for being able to claim free agency if the claiming team waives him? Does he have to go through all 30 teams at least once to earn that right? 

None of this really matters, but in terms of the 'claim then waive' strategy I was curious. 

[Jammer7]

21 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Here's what I don't understand in this line of thinking, how do they "take a look" at them in October when the year is out?

I'm not bashing Elias, I'm questioning his evaluations for major league talent. I've honestly never seen a team ever protect a 33-year AAA back up catcher after the season was done. Evah!!! lol

Look, I'll give him credit for finding guys like Mateo and Urias off the scrap heap, but those were no doubter 1st on the waiver wire queue claims. 

They have done a good job in finding some good pitchers off the waiver wire and I'm a fan of their scouting and development so far for the most part.

I'm not an Elias basher, but I'm also not giving him passes for bad moves or moves that make me question his sanity. Collecting backup catchers in October after the season standpoint just seems very weird to me and the Bemboom and Cave moves are borderline crazy as neither are valuable pieces of any winning team in the future.

I'm going to call them as I see them. If it's a good move, I'll be the first to say it, but he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to evaluating borderline major league talent because he's failed more than he's found success and he's also given up on talent that found great success elsewhere (Evan Phillips and of course Yaz comes to mind).

We're all on the same sheet of music when it comes to saying we doubt these moves mean a lot overall, other than the need to do them. Makes me wonder what other things are they wasting their time on instead of quickly saving a 33-year old back up catcher from potentially becoming a minor league free agent. 

 

If they are on the roster of another team, you cannot have them work out, obviously. Free agents can come, or not. If you have their rights, have them in for an informal workout. Call it a mini-camp, or an instructional seminar, whatever. They do that a lot without any fanfare. You add that to whatever the scouting reports and analysis tell you. If that is some kind of union issue, then call all it a voluntary workout where these guys are motivated to show up by invitation. They want to show up to these things as they see it as an opportunity to impress a team. They do these things all of the time. There are always players working out in Sarasota.

Yeah, we are all in agreement with the amount of importance these moves likely have. Bemboom is puzzling, for sure. With regard to Garcia, in particular, he is still a long shot, but there is potential upside there in a limited role. He has had a lot of injuries, this past season it was a finger and an elbow that kept him out most of the year. He had a hip labrum before that. COVID messed with his rehabilitation and so on. Bad luck, but he has stuck with it and improved his defense in many ways. 

I don’t think Urias was a no-brainer at all. Barely anyone on this board thought much of anything about him until he debuted in 2020. Even then, most here thought he was a waste of a roster spot. Every team fails in these minor acquisitions mostly. The successful waiver claims he had on this year’s team were certainly remarkable, as you stated.  Then, you say he hasn’t shown he can evaluate major league talent? Which is it?

Cionel Perez, Bryan Baker, and even Joey Krehbiel were outstanding. These guys had a flawed history and were largely criticized here. And then, we saw them in Spring Training and suddenly, the doubters were hushed. They even became fans. But, here we are again. That is why I give them the benefit of the doubt. They have a bit of a track record now of finding something they can improve and making a player better. 

He has not made many trades yet. Bradish was worthwhile for one year of a largely washed up Iglesias, no? And we’ll see about Brnovich and Peek after TJ surgery. Both had an upward trajectory before being shut down. 

And the vaunted Rays let Phillips go too, so meh, whatever. Good for Phillips to find his niche. He needed a fresh start. And the same reasoning goes into taking a shot at talent you believe is under-valued by others. Perhaps Elias may think the Orioles have a way of unlocking what others saw in Garcia, or a guy like Cave, all along. Perhaps they have a back up role on a good team if used properly, like Phillips for the Dodgers. No matter how good the coaching and analytics are, guys are still not going to gel or fit. The trick, to me, is to bring in certain guys with certain traits and it’s still a roll of the dice. Albeit, a more calculated one than it used to be. You have to know what you like and what you develop best. Work to your strengths as often as you can to build value. 

He may envision an opportunity to find a back-up catcher for Adley in Garcia. If you look at his career, injuries have been held him back. Catchers sometimes take a while and bloom in a back-up role late in their careers. Or Garcia might be among the many DFA as @Frobby suggested just before the rosters are set for the Winter Meetings. Bemboom and Gallagher seem awfully redundant to me for the moment, but we’ll see how long they last on the 40 man. 

If we lose Handley in rule 5, I will be a little disappointed. Especially if it is when we keep one of the aforementioned journeyman types instead. I think it is an interesting case what happens at back up catcher. What are the Orioles looking for in a back up catcher? Do they need a more-veteran defender, or would an up-and-coming athletic intelligent, albeit inexperienced, kid from Stanford be the right move? IDK.

All of that said, maybe none of these moves work out. So be it. If you do nothing, you don’t have success at all. That’s the only guaranteed outcome. We still need to find under-valued talent in a small to mid-market team. Sorry about the long rambling post.

 

 

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Here's what I don't understand in this line of thinking, how do they "take a look" at them in October when the year is out?

I'm not bashing Elias, I'm questioning his evaluations for major league talent. I've honestly never seen a team ever protect a 33-year AAA back up catcher after the season was done. Evah!!! lol

Look, I'll give him credit for finding guys like Mateo and Urias off the scrap heap, but those were no doubter 1st on the waiver wire queue claims. 

They have done a good job in finding some good pitchers off the waiver wire and I'm a fan of their scouting and development so far for the most part.

I'm not an Elias basher, but I'm also not giving him passes for bad moves or moves that make me question his sanity. Collecting backup catchers in October after the season standpoint just seems very weird to me and the Bemboom and Cave moves are borderline crazy as neither are valuable pieces of any winning team in the future.

I'm going to call them as I see them. If it's a good move, I'll be the first to say it, but he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to evaluating borderline major league talent because he's failed more than he's found success and he's also given up on talent that found great success elsewhere (Evan Phillips and of course Yaz comes to mind).

We're all on the same sheet of music when it comes to saying we doubt these moves mean a lot overall, other than the need to do them. Makes me wonder what other things are they wasting their time on instead of quickly saving a 33-year old back up catcher from potentially becoming a minor league free agent. 

 

Just, wow. Putting together almost an entire bullpen plus Voth and Urias and Mateo, I think that is a pretty good track record for evaluating talent. Pretty much every hole we have he has found someone decent to fill. Only exception I can think of is backup C. 

Questioning his sanity after the season we've had is just tremendously unfair at this point in the offseason. I would also be upset/concerned if these guys are the "Plan A" for backup C and/or force us to lose players in the Rule 5, but my operating assumptions are that (1) Elias is not an idiot and (2) probably has a plan that is yet to materialize. From my standpoint he gets a long leash.

As far as wasting time, what else is he supposed to do in October? How many other teams are making major moves at this time? Seems like if Elias hadn't claimed two random backup C's you'd be just fine sitting with Jake Reed and Beau Sulser. Admittedly, these C options are hopefully longshots to play a role for us but I don't see how that is "wasting time" or any worse than the guys we dropped.

You've made some good points on Stowers and I think we all agree about Aguilar but I am waiting to see how the offseason plays out before calling Elias out for minor moves in October. 

[foxfield]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:37 AM, Tony-OH said:

Here's what I don't understand in this line of thinking, how do they "take a look" at them in October when the year is out?

I'm not bashing Elias, I'm questioning his evaluations for major league talent. I've honestly never seen a team ever protect a 33-year AAA back up catcher after the season was done. Evah!!! lol

Look, I'll give him credit for finding guys like Mateo and Urias off the scrap heap, but those were no doubter 1st on the waiver wire queue claims. 

They have done a good job in finding some good pitchers off the waiver wire and I'm a fan of their scouting and development so far for the most part.

I'm not an Elias basher, but I'm also not giving him passes for bad moves or moves that make me question his sanity. Collecting backup catchers in October after the season standpoint just seems very weird to me and the Bemboom and Cave moves are borderline crazy as neither are valuable pieces of any winning team in the future.

I'm going to call them as I see them. If it's a good move, I'll be the first to say it, but he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to evaluating borderline major league talent because he's failed more than he's found success and he's also given up on talent that found great success elsewhere (Evan Phillips and of course Yaz comes to mind).

We're all on the same sheet of music when it comes to saying we doubt these moves mean a lot overall, other than the need to do them. Makes me wonder what other things are they wasting their time on instead of quickly saving a 33-year old back up catcher from potentially becoming a minor league free agent. 

 

Honest question Tony.  The bolded above.  How are the Orioles doing that.  I think if any or all of these guys are protected on the 40 man roster after the season...going into the Rule V draft, I think everyone will completely share your concern.  

And I am not saying...Elias is a genius so simply go with it.  I am merely saying what he does with the 40 man between now and Rule V has different meaning today versus when that roster is set.  

Another question, assuming none of these additions stick?  Has he released anyone you wanted to keep?

[Sports Guy]

1 year deal for Benboom. Guess he’s your starter in AAA?

 

[eddie83]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

1 year deal for Benboom. Guess he’s your starter in AAA?

 

Question now is do they have 3 catchers on 40 or two when they finalize it. Maybe their goal is to release their “batch” of catchers at once and sign one of them back to MiL deal. 

[Frobby]

So, Bemboom has no options remaining, has been put on outright waivers in a prior season, and now he’s signed a one-year contract and is on the 40-man roster.  Is it some kind of split contract that varies depending whether he’s in the majors or the minors?  Does this mean that if he’s in the majors at some point but is sent down on outright waivers, any team that claims him has to assume his contract?  If he’s outrighted, can he elect free agency, or does he have to stay with the O’s because he’s under contract?

[wildcard]

30 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So, Bemboom has no options remaining, has been put on outright waivers in a prior season, and now he’s signed a one-year contract and is on the 40-man roster.  Is it some kind of split contract that varies depending whether he’s in the majors or the minors?  Does this mean that if he’s in the majors at some point but is sent down on outright waivers, any team that claims him has to assume his contract?  If he’s outrighted, can he elect free agency, or does he have to stay with the O’s because he’s under contract?

Major league contract or minor league contract?

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Major league contract or minor league contract?

I’m guessing it’s a split contract, but I have no idea.