Joey Ortiz 2023

[deward]

10 minutes ago, geschinger said:

He's been serviceable and that is what I mean about the W-L record.  I think that makes it more likely that Urias keeps getting ABs that could otherwise go to Ortiz.  Westburg has done better at the MLB level in his 40ABs over 2 weeks than Ortiz has in his 33 ABs spread over 3 months.  Does that really tell us anything that JW is part of solid IF and Ortiz wouldn't be? 

I'm not saying Ortiz should replace JW just that I don't think the evidence is there that points to JW being better for the Orioles this year or long-term than Ortiz would be and the team would be better served getting them both everyday ABs to see who is better for the org going forward once Holiday is in the mix. 

Urias has been serviceable but unless the thought process is GH is so awful defensively at 3rd that they need to limit his time there then, GH at third, JO at SS, and JW at 2nd would IMO be the most productive lineup.  I think JO exceeds the ~.720 OPS that Urias gives the team if given regular playing time. 

I can't prove it, but the team's actions seem to suggest that they don't think Ortiz' offensive production is as good a bet to carry over to the bigs as Westburg's. 

[Baltimorecuse]

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You would be astounded if they played a more talented overall player?

In my opinion Ortiz would be lucky to carry Urias' jock.  Ortiz may be better someday.  

So we'll just have to disagree.  

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

In my opinion Ortiz would be lucky to carry Urias' jock.  Ortiz may be better someday.  

So we'll just have to disagree.  

Lol. Ok. I agree that should stop while you are behind if that is your assessment.

[Baltimorecuse]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol. Ok. I agree that should stop while you are behind if that is your assessment.

Your assessment is any better?  LMAO

[Baltimorecuse]

37 minutes ago, deward said:

I can't prove it, but the team's actions seem to suggest that they don't think Ortiz' offensive production is as good a bet to carry over to the bigs as Westburg's. 

In my opinion the team is right.

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Your assessment is any better?  LMAO

It’s not my assessment as much as all assessments with age, value, salary, service time, et al all mixed in.

Saying Ortiz can’t hold his jock is an ignorant statement that screams “I know nothing about Ortiz”

[deward]

13 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

In my opinion the team is right.

Intuitively, I tend to agree, although I wouldn't be able to quantify why. Looking at Ortiz's walk totals, and then looking at how Westburg and Cowser have been working the count since they've been called up, and I wonder if the answer lies there for why the team doesn't seem as fired up about Ortiz as you might expect. That said, I'd like to see him get an opportunity for as long as the pre-Holliday window is open.

[Aristotelian]

54 minutes ago, deward said:

I can't prove it, but the team's actions seem to suggest that they don't think Ortiz' offensive production is as good a bet to carry over to the bigs as Westburg's. 

The situations are a little different. They were forced to add Ortiz to the 40-man earlier than they deemed him ready, with only 100 AB's. They had a team need for a backup player for a couple weeks so they called him up. Then they sent him back down to continue getting full time AB's. If Ortiz was a year younger he probably stays in AAA the whole year same as Westburg. 

[Baltimorecuse]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s not my assessment as much as all assessments with age, value, salary, service time, et al all mixed in.

Saying Ortiz can’t hold his jock is an ignorant statement that screams “I know nothing about Ortiz”

You'll get over it.

[deward]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

The situations are a little different. They were forced to add Ortiz to the 40-man earlier than they deemed him ready, with only 100 AB's. They had a team need for a backup player for a couple weeks so they called him up. Then they sent him back down to continue getting full time AB's. If Ortiz was a year younger he probably stays in AAA the whole year same as Westburg. 

Maybe, but it seems to me that they could have easily chosen to call up Ortiz instead of Westburg last month if they considered him to be as good or better. He had a couple of hundred high-performing AAA ABs by that point. Like you said, he was already on the 40-man. They made the move to add Westburg instead, which speaks pretty loudly to me.

[DirtyBird]

5 minutes ago, deward said:

They made the move to add Westburg instead, which speaks pretty loudly to me.

I believe they were looking for a spark of power in the lineup

[Tony-OH]

Right now the Orioles can afford to keep Ortiz in AAA because they've got all of his positions covered. They can not options Mateo or Urias since they are out of options, so the team loses them if they try to DFA them even if they believe Ortiz is a better overall player than both.

Personally, I still believe Ortiz is going to be an everyday above average SS in the major leagues. The bat is going to be good enough and while his base running sprint speed is the only thing that keeps him from being "special", he still has plenty of quickness and range at SS to be above average. 

He's not going to have the home run power of Westburg, but he may end up hitting for higher average at the major league level though I do believe Westburg's ability to take walks and get pitched around more due to his power may give him a better OBP.

Ortiz very well may not play much of a role this year, but I'm betting none of Frazier, Mateo and Urias will be here next year and Ortiz will be able to slot in either as the everyday SS or the super utility guy since he's above average defensively at every infield spot.

[Baltimorecuse]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Right now the Orioles can afford to keep Ortiz in AAA because they've got all of his positions covered. They can not options Mateo or Urias since they are out of options, so the team loses them if they try to DFA them even if they believe Ortiz is a better overall player than both.

Personally, I still believe Ortiz is going to be an everyday above average SS in the major leagues. The bat is going to be good enough and while his base running sprint speed is the only thing that keeps him from being "special", he still has plenty of quickness and range at SS to be above average. 

He's not going to have the home run power of Westburg, but he may end up hitting for higher average at the major league level though I do believe Westburg's ability to take walks and get pitched around more due to his power may give him a better OBP.

Ortiz very well may not play much of a role this year, but I'm betting none of Frazier, Mateo and Urias will be here next year and Ortiz will be able to slot in either as the everyday SS or the super utility guy since he's above average defensively at every infield spot.

All the beliefs are personal.  When Ortiz wins a gold glove like Urias I''ll happily put him in Urias' category.  With Westburg, Gunnar, and Holliday, I see no future for him.  

[Tony-OH]

2 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

All the beliefs are personal.  When Ortiz wins a gold glove like Urias I''ll happily put him in Urias' category.  With Westburg, Gunnar, and Holliday, I see no future for him.  

First off, my "beliefs" aren't personal, they're my scouting observations from watching him throughout his minor league career. Second, you are welcome to your personal "beliefs" but I think most people would think you are way off the mark on the quality of Ortiz as a player. 

Now, could he be a guy used as a trade chip because of the depth of the infield prospects? Perhaps. But Ortiz is the best defensive shortstop in the system and that includes Holliday so I wouldn't say right now that he has no future in the Orioles infield. 

It just depends on the way the Orioles decide to go. Right now Henderson is fine at SS, but he's always made his share of errors. Ortiz is much more sure handed there and the Orioles know this. The Henderson, Ortiz, Westburg infield could be the everyday infield next year with Urias sticking around as the backup to each while spelling a left-handed hitting first baseman and each of the others at times.

When Holliday is ready, then they can worry about that and perhaps it will be more clear on who should be moved, but that time is not arrived and probably won't be here until at the very earliest mid to late next year.

[Hank Scorpio]

10 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

All the beliefs are personal.  When Ortiz wins a gold glove like Urias I''ll happily put him in Urias' category.  With Westburg, Gunnar, and Holliday, I see no future for him.  

Palmeiro "won" a gold glove as a DH. 

I don't put a whole lot of stock in the distinction, though I will agree that Urias is a good defender.

And my personal opinion is that Ortiz has the best hands at SS in the organization including Mateo.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Hank Scorpio