Ohtani Rental?

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, Number5 said:

I'd probably agree with this had Ohtani not recently come out and say that he regrets not having done his homework to find out just how bad the Angels were before signing with them.  That certainly gives off a negative vibe as to whether he re-signs with them IMO.

Are you sure Ohtani said this and you're not mixing it up with this story from The Onion? It seems out of character for Ohtani even if he's unhappy with the Angels' struggles to win baseball games.

Shohei Ohtani Regrets Not Researching Which Teams Were Good Before Signing With Angels

[Number5]

2 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Are you sure Ohtani said this and you're not mixing it up with this story from The Onion? It seems out of character for Ohtani even if he's unhappy with the Angels' struggles to win baseball games.

Shohei Ohtani Regrets Not Researching Which Teams Were Good Before Signing With Angels

LOL.  No, I'm not sure.  I am sure that The Onion is not where I read it, but if it originated there, that certainly changes things.  I read it on some other site -- possibly even OH.  Obviously, if Ohtani made no such statement and/or is happy on the Angels, their likelihood of re-signing him is dramatically increased.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 minutes ago, Number5 said:

LOL.  No, I'm not sure.  I am sure that The Onion is not where I read it, but if it originated there, that certainly changes things.  I read it on some other site -- possibly even OH.  Obviously, if Ohtani made no such statement and/or is happy on the Angels, their likelihood of re-signing him is dramatically increased.

Even with all this Ohtani talk, I think the Angels want to resign him long term, but maybe like you said Ohtani has made it known he isn’t going to return to the Angels in 2024.

Talking about trading Ohtani gives MLB Network, sports talk radio and baseball writers plenty to talk about even if it’s a remote possibility at best. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Even with all this Ohtani talk, I think the Angels want to resign him long term, but maybe like you said Ohtani has made it known he isn’t going to return to the Angels in 2024.

Talking about trading Ohtani gives MLB Network, sports talk radio and baseball writers plenty to talk about even if it’s a remote possibility at best. 

If Ohtani wants to stay with the Angels than they should trade him.  Get pieces for next year and re-sign him as a free agent.

Assuming you can get him on board of course.

[Billy F-Face3]

A couple points...

The Dodgers are probably confident they can wait to the offseason and sign Ohtani, so I don't imagine them giving up an overwhelming prospect package for him now.  It just wouldn't make sense on their behalf if they know they're the front runner to sign him anyway in 3 months.

 

In the 1990s, trading for one player was the catalyst for 2 franchises to win the Wold Series. When the Blue Jays did it in 1992, they won back to back championships.

When the Yankees had a young team and traded for this player in 1995, they set a Dynasty into motion. With this player, they made the post season, won it all the following season, and appeared in 6 out of 9 World Series from the moment they made the trade.

Who is that player? It was Ace pitcher, David Cone. 

In 2017, the young Astros trade for Justin Verlander and it catapults them to a World Series Championship.

Why am I rambling on about David Cone and Justin Verlander type of trades? Because this season, Shohei Ohtani is that same type of catalyst trade to win a world series and set a Dynasty into motion.

[HakunaSakata]

This thread is so silly. Mortgaging the future of the franchise by trading for Ohtani to help with a single playoff run (because there's zero chance we resign him)  makes absolutely no sense and completely goes against the approach this team has taken to "fix" what was wrong. The idea is to maintain a pipeline of young players so we can continue to contend every year, not just this season. If the Orioles want to trade a prospect for a young controllable SP that's fine, but there's no world in which Ohtani fits that description or trading for him makes sense for this team. None [End Scene].

[HakunaSakata]

20 minutes ago, Number5 said:

LOL.  No, I'm not sure.  I am sure that The Onion is not where I read it, but if it originated there, that certainly changes things.  I read it on some other site -- possibly even OH.  Obviously, if Ohtani made no such statement and/or is happy on the Angels, their likelihood of re-signing him is dramatically increased.

I'm pretty sure it did (originate with the Onion). If you look at all the other reports they seem to directly quote the Onion post. I was duped too until I researched it a bit more. It's a shame we live in a world where you have to fact check every piece of media/report. 

[Billy F-Face3]

4 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

This thread is so silly. Mortgaging the future of the franchise by trading for Ohtani to help with a single playoff run (because there's zero chance we resign him)  makes absolutely no sense and completely goes against the approach this team has taken to "fix" what was wrong. The idea is to maintain a pipeline of young players so we can continue to contend every year, not just this season. If the Orioles want to trade a prospect for a young controllable SP that's fine, but there's no world in which Ohtani fits that description or trading for him makes sense for this team. None [End Scene].

Heres the flaw in this post... Players who are 23 and 25 years old with no spot to play on tbe big league roster (some are top 100) are not part of future plans. They are not the pipeline. 

No one disputes the point you made about not mortgaging the future. But what is lost in your post is that we have alot of excess valuable prospects and MLB players who aren't even part of the future. In other words, we have alot to work with to be flexible in getting a deal done without mortgaging the future.

[Billy F-Face3]

By the way, how valuable was Yusniel Diaz to our future? Trading prospects when their value is high for a proven Hall Of Fame player in the prime of his career is the only way to be aure you get any Big League production out of that prospect asset. 

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

This thread is so silly. Mortgaging the future of the franchise by trading for Ohtani to help with a single playoff run (because there's zero chance we resign him)  makes absolutely no sense and completely goes against the approach this team has taken to "fix" what was wrong. The idea is to maintain a pipeline of young players so we can continue to contend every year, not just this season. If the Orioles want to trade a prospect for a young controllable SP that's fine, but there's no world in which Ohtani fits that description or trading for him makes sense for this team. None [End Scene].

"Mortgaging the future" is the part of your post that I have questions about. I guess different fans/posters define that differently. But I don't think that a 2 month Ohtani rental is going o come at that cost.

It is clear that the only other team with more top prospects than us (the Dodgers) are a team that also very much values their prospects/development of young guys. Under Friedman, the mostly retain their prospect (think what they traded for Machado/Betts/Scherzer + Turner). It has been reported that the Angels do not want to trade Ohtani to the Dodgers nor a team in the AL West (Rangers). That makes sense especially with the Dodgers because they would in essence be destroying their share of the Southern California market.

The Angels prefer to trade Ohtani to a team that is going to be a rental so that they still have the possibility to resign him. Of that list of potential teams, we are on a shorter list of teams and we have the most prospects/players to work with. The other teams would be the D-Backs, Rays, and Reds. Do ANY of them seem like the go all-in/mortgage the future franchises?

If no one is offering these mortgage forfeiting deal amongst the teams with the most to give, then the Angels are going to be forced to accept a reasonable offer. I said it before, but if they wanted to maximize the trade value of Ohtani it would have been to deal him LAST TRADE DEADLINE not this one. It is simply too late for that. No one is giving up 4-6 top 100 prospects for a 2 month player no matter how great he is.

So that takes us back to the O's. When I think of mortgaging the future, I think of 1 of 2 things - 1. trading away superstar potential players or 2. creating a hole for yourself short or longterm.

I would argue that a trade involving prospects (not named Holliday, Cowser, Kjerstad, and maybe Mayo) does not cede any piece/player/prospect that is not replaceable or any who would create an immediate longterm or short term need.

Westburg/Ortiz/Norby/Prieto/Hall/Beavers/Povich are not players/prospects who cannot be replaced or considered players with burgeoning superstar potential.

Obviously, you don't trade all. As one of Westburg/Ortiz/Norby will be a longer term starter on the INF. But what are the other 2 going to do? Be a backup/utility player/super sub (on a team filled with guys who are all top talented players and won't/don't need a platoon).

A trade involving some of those prospects (2/3) plus a Mountcastle and maybe a Urias (if that is what it took) wouldn't hurt us short or long term. But would give us better odds of having postseason success.

[Just Regular]

19 minutes ago, HakunaSakata said:

This thread is so silly. Mortgaging the future of the franchise by trading for Ohtani to help with a single playoff run (because there's zero chance we resign him)  makes absolutely no sense and completely goes against the approach this team has taken to "fix" what was wrong. The idea is to maintain a pipeline of young players so we can continue to contend every year, not just this season. If the Orioles want to trade a prospect for a young controllable SP that's fine, but there's no world in which Ohtani fits that description or trading for him makes sense for this team. None [End Scene].

Granted leaning into a devil's advocate position here, but it is possible 2023 is the only year Felix Bautista's arm doesn't explode, and Shohei Ohtani is part of some other AL or NL team that eliminates BAL in the tournament.     

Like a pick six in football, a playoff Club that acquires Ohtani also denies him to 11 tournament competitors.     Arguably the 2-month portfolio risk is less than with Snell or Hader because if he has an arm owie, maybe he's still the best hitter in the league.    The blister bears watching, but in the dog days Tyler Wells and Nate Eovaldi and Gerrit Cole and Shohei Ohtani have all been taxed heavily this season.

Ohtani is the alpha dog for 2023 performance, and its basic duty for Mike Elias to learn as best he can the price point for any of the world's best baseball players that could be available in the coming week, even if just to do a proper job with a memo and policy recommendation to John Angelos.

[Bemorewins]

11 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

By the way, how valuable was Yusniel Diaz to our future? Trading prospects when their value is high for a proven Hall Of Fame player in the prime of his career is the only way to be aure you get any Big League production out of that prospect asset. 

You and I appear to be aligned on this Ohtani thing. However, it appears that many posters are caught up in this "giving away the store/mortgaging the future" notion. 

I just don't see the acquisition cost being crippling or even damaging to us. 

As you stated, we have a lot of prospects and players who while good and carry value are not necessary or even needed for us to win ballgames for a long time.

I'm of the notion that when the iron is hot you need to strike. As you pointed out THIS is what the Astros have done. It is also what the Dodgers have done. Laying back, being passive, and hedging is what teams like the Rays always do. While it doesn't hurt it never helps with improvement or it never allows them to maximize opportunities.

[Billy F-Face3]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

 

I'm of the notion that when the iron is hot you need to strike. As you pointed out THIS is what the Astros have done. It is also what the Dodgers have done. Laying back, being passive, and hedging is what teams like the Rays always do. While it doesn't hurt it never helps with improvement or it never allows them to maximize opportunities.

I agree and if you look at a team like the Rays, they have never won a world series and they can't even fill their own home stadium even when they start out with the best record in baseball. 

Fans want a difference maker. It's what's best for business.

[dzorange]

The questions for me are how much are the Orioles willing to give up for a starting pitcher not named Ohtani at the deadline? And how much more is Ohtani worth?

I get the idea of not mortgaging the future for Ohtani. I'm really not on board with trading a guy like Kjerstad. Others like Ortiz I'm okay with.

But if the Orioles are already willing to part with some of "the future" for guys like Montgomery or Giolito, is it worth kicking the tires on taking the next step up to Ohtani? I mean Elias got Cano, Seth Johnson, Chayce McDermott, Cade Povich for just Jorge Lopez and a Trey Mancini rental.

If Baltimore ends up overpaying for a rental, but don't "mortgage the future", will we feel that great about it?

I feel like the trade values and availability of all these players are just completely unknown. I personally don't think the Angels will trade Ohtani, and if they do, I don't think it's going to be as much of a blockbuster deal as everyone thinks it will be. Teams would rather overpay for a lesser rental, as we saw with the O's trades last trade deadline. I don't know if at the end of the day the difference to upgrading to Ohtani will be that massive. And that's why LA won't trade him.

Edited July 25, 2023 by dzorange

[Bemorewins]

Just now, Billy F-Face3 said:

I agree and if you look at a team like the Rays, they have never won a world series and they can't even fill their own home stadium even when they start out with the best record in baseball. 

Fans want a difference maker. It's what's best for business.

THIS!

There will be a buzz/excitement/energy through this city/community/market that will be incredible.

I can almost guarantee that ticket and merch sales would sky rocket. Heck, I have already stated that if the O's were to somehow land Ohtani, I will make every effort to attend one game per series from that point through the rest of the season. And would definitely buy Ohtani jerseys for me and my son, like the very next day he is acquired.

This would also have the effect of season ticket sales for next season. Coming off of a deep postseason run with Ohtani, there would be so much buzz/juice/excitement heading into next season. This kind of acquisition would really change the franchises trajectory and it's standing within the game itself. 

If some feel that this is exaggeration, look at where the Astros are now compared to where they were when they acquired Verlander. It changed everything.