The Adam Frazier Hate

[ChosenOne21]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

At least they won't be bashing his smile like poor Mountcastle.

Yeah, but if he had hit a double we wouldn't be having this conversation

[Frobby]

Almost everybody on this site wonders why we spent $8 mm on Frazier when (1) we already had Urias available to play 2B, and (2) we had not one, not two, but three excellent prospects capable of playing 2B doing well at Norfolk.
 

Separate from that issue, there has been a difference of opinion on whether Frazier is a solid regular who would make a good contribution to the team, or an over the hill player who’s barely better than a replacement player.  Personally, I think Frazier is a very solid player and is doing everything I would have expected him to do.   He’s a big upgrade over Rougned Odor and I enjoy watching him play.  My opinion doesn’t change as his OPS fluctuates between the low .700s and the mid-to-upper .600s depending on the week.  He’s in the range I expected and doing what he’s being paid to do.  

I’d still rather have seen what Westburg or Ortiz could have done with those opportunities, but I respect what Frazier is bringing.  


 

[Alasdaire]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Personally, I think Frazier is a very solid player and is doing everything I would have expected him to do.   He’s a big upgrade over Rougned Odor and I enjoy watching him play.

I think you can say that the signing made sense but that he should still be benched now.

He is better than Odor, and Ortiz/Westburg weren't going to start opening day. Plus if those two were injured or slumping like Norby is right now, you couldn't call them up. But they're ready now.

I think it's a sunk cost fallacy to continue playing Frazier simply because you signed him.

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

I think you can say that the signing made sense but that he should still be benched now.

He is better than Odor, and Ortiz/Westburg weren't going to start opening day. Plus if those two were injured or slumping like Norby is right now, you couldn't call them up. But they're ready now.

I think it's a sunk cost fallacy to continue playing Frazier simply because you signed him.

Westburg for sure was ready at the end of last year.  He had 413 PA in AAA.   And remember, he wouldn’t have been asked to play every day.  We already had Urias, Mateo and Henderson.

Wr aren’t going to bench him now.  There’s no sunk cost here, because he’s a solid player.  The team is winning and he’s been helping them do it.  

[Alasdaire]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Westburg for sure was ready at the end of last year.  He had 413 PA in AAA.   And remember, he wouldn’t have been asked to play every day.  We already had Urias, Mateo and Henderson.

Wr aren’t going to bench him now.  There’s no sunk cost here, because he’s a solid player.  The team is winning and he’s been helping them do it.  

I really don't mind Adam Frazier in a vacuum. I share your sentiment that he is an upgrade over Odor and has done what was expected of him.

But I don't like Jordan Westburg/Joey Ortiz being in Norfolk. These are 25 year olds who have done everything asked of them and more. They need to be in Baltimore, and Adam Frazier shouldn't be standing in the way of that.

[Moose Milligan]

Mr. Splash out here reppin for a slightly above major leaguer. 
 

WAA WAA WAA. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Moose Milligan

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

The main issue with Frazier is that we know the team has a very limited budget and spending 8M on Frazier when the team is rife with middle infielder prospects makes little sense.

That's the issue. I don't want to see the Orioles not be able to trade for a starting pitcher at the trade deadline because Elias went over budget adding Frazier with ample middle infield talent already in the organization.

Again hopefully $8M isn't enough to stop any potential trades, but we won't really know until ownership opens the purse strings again.

[DirtyBird]

10 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

That's the issue. I don't want to see the Orioles not be able to trade for a starting pitcher at the trade deadline because Elias went over budget adding Frazier with ample middle infield talent already in the organization.

Again hopefully $8M isn't enough to stop any potential trades, but we won't really know until ownership opens the purse strings again.

I highly doubt Frazier's contract would be of any consideration in a potential trade for a starting pitcher.

The biggest obstacle will be the lack of quality starters on the market at the deadline.

[Billy F-Face3]

3 hours ago, Mr-splash said:

I don't get it. I do understand Frazier is not a hugely talented big leaguer, but this idea that Frazier is a bad ballplayer has been bizarre to see this season from fans. Every fanbase needs a whipping boy and a scapegoat to blame when a tough loss occurs. Frazier seems to be that guy for us. Frazier has a career 2.5 WAA. Meaning that he's actually been a very slightly above average big league ballplayer for his career. His first two seasons he was a bad defender, but every single season since he has graded as a plus defender with the glove at 2nd base. His OPS right now is .704

 

Ramon Urias is the best infielder in the organization right now. Mateo is probably the 2nd best. Frazier is the 3rd best. Gunnar and Mounty are the 4th and 5th best. Why is Frazier playing? Well, he's just better than the other guys in the organization right now. I'm not talking about future projections. You can point to guys like Ortiz, Westburg, Norby, etc. But Frazier is a proven commodity. Right now.

I think Fraisier is a very good player and all he has done is contribute to the Orioles team to help them win. But I think with fans, what happened was that they were hoping for a bigger splash in free agency at the pitching position. Then when they didn't get it, and the Orioles signed at a position that was already facing a bottleneck of talent coming up through the organization, I think that left fans feeling disappointed in the offseason. It's not Adam Frasier himself that they complain about. Frasier just represents what fans feel are the wrong use of funds, and to other fans he represents blocking younger talent from getting an opportunity to show what they do in the Major Leagues. And Orioles fans are very excited to see the prospects coming.

So overall, it's not Adam Frazier they are lamenting about. It's what his signing represents. Adam Frazier is just a face... a scapegoat / mascot for a disagreement of decisions between some hardcore fans/armchair GMS and the Orioles Front Office. Adam Frasier himself is actually a good baseball player and fans should enjoy the contributions that he is making to the team. Sometimes people are unable to separate their feelings and conflate the two.

 

[owknows]

4 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

I think Fraisier is a very good player and all he has done is contribute to the Orioles team to help them win. But I think with fans, what happened was that they were hoping for a bigger splash in free agency at the pitching position. Then when they didn't get it, and the Orioles signed at a position that was already facing a bottleneck of talent coming up through the organization, I think that left fans feeling disappointed in the offseason. It's not Adam Frasier himself that they complain about. Frasier just represents what fans feel are the wrong use of funds, and to other fans he represents blocking younger talent from getting an opportunity to show what they do in the Major Leagues. And Orioles fans are very excited to see the prospects coming.

So overall, it's not Adam Frazier they are lamenting about. It's what his signing represents. Adam Frazier is just a face... a scapegoat / mascot for a disagreement of decisions between some hardcore fans/armchair GMS and the Orioles Front Office. Adam Frasier himself is actually a good baseball player and fans should enjoy the contributions that he is making to the team. Sometimes people are unable to separate their feelings and conflate the two.

 

People didn't want a better Frazier.

They wanted no Frazier at all.

Because fans could see they obviously already had a logjam of very talented middle infielders whose progression is being prevented by the presence of a player that the team feels compelled to play because they spent money on him.

Mateo, Urias, Vavra, Ortiz, Henderson, Westburg, and Norby were already here... It was already going to be necessary to trade away some of them.

Now it is even more necessary.. and it will have to be done without a chance to fully evaluate their MLB potential.. because there's no place to play them.

And it was all very obvious and very predictable.. even from the cheap seats.

This has nothing to do with Frazier... his play... or the desire for a different free agent.

The correct move for the Orioles would have been no FA middle infielder.

Edited May 20, 2023 by owknows
spelling

[Mr-splash]

8 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

What if the 8M could have been spent to make some other move that would have made an even bigger positive difference?

What if the reason he's outplaying Ortiz is because Ortiz hasn't been up all year?

I want the team to follow a sensible process.  Baseball is full of chaos and bad moves can and will pay off just like the proper move can fail miserably.

Spending ~10% of the teams payroll on Frazier isn't a sensible move.

 

Adam Frazier is what Ortiz and Norby hope to become in the big leagues. A plus defensive middle infielder with the ability to occasionally put one over the wall. That's Adam Frazier in a nutshell. We don't know if Ortiz and Norby can do that at this level. Why play somebody who might become Adam Frazier when we already have the real thing?

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

 

Adam Frazier is what Ortiz and Norby hope to become in the big leagues. A plus defensive middle infielder with the ability to occasionally put one over the wall. That's Adam Frazier in a nutshell. We don't know if Ortiz and Norby can do that at this level. Why play somebody who might become Adam Frazier when we already have the real thing?

Because we had to spend 8 million for one year of it when we already have (2)6+ years of it on tap.

[owknows]

4 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

 

Adam Frazier is what Ortiz and Norby hope to become in the big leagues. A plus defensive middle infielder with the ability to occasionally put one over the wall. That's Adam Frazier in a nutshell. We don't know if Ortiz and Norby can do that at this level. Why play somebody who might become Adam Frazier when we already have the real thing?

 

5 minutes ago, Mr-splash said:

 

Adam Frazier is what Ortiz and Norby hope to become in the big leagues. A plus defensive middle infielder with the ability to occasionally put one over the wall. That's Adam Frazier in a nutshell. We don't know if Ortiz and Norby can do that at this level. Why play somebody who might become Adam Frazier when we already have the real thing?

OK... I'm going out on a limb here...  but I think it's a fairly safe bet that ultimately some combination of Mateo, Urias, Vavra, Ortiz, Henderson, Westburg, Holliday, and Norby will muster decent glove, and better than a .228 BA and a .704 OPS

[Mr-splash]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Because we had to spend 8 million for one year of it when we already have (2)6+ years of it on tap.

Correction, me might have that on tap. That's an important distinction. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Mr-splash said:

Correction, me might have that on tap. That's an important distinction. 

And they might be better.

Maybe one of them could put up a 4 win season and we are missing out.

Works both ways.