Snell/Hader package

[yark14]

17 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

Yeah, I doubt the Mets really want to trade Scherzer either.  Even if they're out of it this year I bet they'd like him back next season.  I bet they'd rather trade Verlander, and I bet we could get Verlander from them for very not that much.  The problem is Verlander has a huge contract thru next season and an option for 2025.  And he's got an ERA a bit over 4.

Scherzer appears to be willing to waive his no-trade clause.  If the Mets are willing to eat part of his contract, this could be a great move: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/06/max-scherzer-reportedly-open-to-waiving-no-trade-clause.html

[clapdiddy]

2 minutes ago, yark14 said:

Scherzer appears to be willing to waive his no-trade clause.  If the Mets are willing to eat part of his contract, this could be a great move: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/06/max-scherzer-reportedly-open-to-waiving-no-trade-clause.html

No way do I see this happening.   Too much money...too much to give up.   You figure if the Mets eat some of his salary, it will cost far more in players.

[sevastras]

On 6/27/2023 at 10:02 AM, Malike said:

I'm not sure how to make that deal work. They are so stacked for an awful long time at 3B, SS, LF, RF, they have a good young 2B. I'm just not sure what we offer that would make them give up two pitchers.

The only thing SD really needs is a front office and a coach that can handle all of the pre Madonnas they have. I don’t see ME trading himself and acquiring a coach that can control them. Both Melvin and Buck should be fired, not because they are bad coaches but neither have control of their respective clubhouses. 

[Bemorewins]

I'm not really sure about Scherzer. He is DEFINITELY not the pitcher that he once was. He's been up and down this season and had more than his usual absolutely clunker starts. He does have a wealth of experience and success when the lights are the brightest.

I'm not sure how much that is worth. How do you value a once great, now declining pitcher?

I'm not confident that the Mets will sell but if they do, they would have to eat a bunch of money to interest me. He's just not worth what he is currently being paid, really not close.

I don't see this about a player cost thing because you are not going to have a wealth of suitors to begin with (given his performance and salary). This will be more about the Mets being willing to move on from him and a salary dump than them actually trading a highly valued commodity. He may be much closer to being done than he is being great again.

[Bemorewins]

3 minutes ago, sevastras said:

The only thing SD really needs is a front office and a coach that can handle all of the pre Madonnas they have. I don’t see ME trading himself and acquiring a coach that can control them. Both Melvin and Buck should be fired, not because they are bad coaches but neither have control of their respective clubhouses. 

To be fair, superstars in modern society are not really about "being controlled" in ANY sport. They make WAY TOO MUCH MONEY for them to be dictated to by someone who makes WAY LESS than them.

LONG GONE are they days when an org can tell a superstar to "straighten up or ship out". Most will say "fine" and be more than happy to choose their next destination and find success and enjoy their superstar status elsewhere. 

[Tryptamine]

20 hours ago, Malike said:

I'm not going to do all of your research for you but lets look at the Cubs world series. Jon Lester 5.2 IP 3 ER, Jake Arrieta 5.2 1 ER, Kyle Hendricks 4.1IP 0 ER, John Lackey 5.0IP 2 ER, Jon Lester 6.0IP 2 ER, Jake Arrieta 5.2IP 3 ER, Kyle Hendricks 4.2IP 1 ER. 

Now, if you think those are standout performances and things our pitchers are not capable of, then I don't know what to tell you. I have no doubt the rest of the WS winners would look similar, but again, I'm not spending my day looking up stats when you just make proclamations and are shown they are wrong, stand your ground and refuse to look at any data for yourself. Starting pitching rarely puts the team out of reach, it's the bullpen that gives it away in bunches.

 

37IP 12 ER is a 2.92 ERA. That's not exactly mediocre like you're trying to make it look, especially against another elite team and under that pressure. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Tryptamine said:

 

37IP 12 ER is a 2.92 ERA. That's not exactly mediocre like you're trying to make it look, especially against another elite team and under that pressure. 

It’s not elite in terms of IP though, which was his point.

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, Tryptamine said:

 

37IP 12 ER is a 2.92 ERA. That's not exactly mediocre like you're trying to make it look, especially against another elite team and under that pressure. 

That's the point that I tried to make to @Malike. It's one thing to put up those numbers in the regular season, it's something entirely different to be able to do that when the lights are the brightest agains the very best opposition that you could face.

I can guarantee you that they were even better in the regular season and consistently put up much more length as starters in the regular season.

However, some fans do not acknowledge/accept that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the regular season and the postseason.

[Can_of_corn]

19 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

That's the point that I tried to make to @Malike. It's one thing to put up those numbers in the regular season, it's something entirely different to be able to do that when the lights are the brightest agains the very best opposition that you could face.

I can guarantee you that they were even better in the regular season and consistently put up much more length as starters in the regular season.

However, some fans do not acknowledge/accept that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the regular season and the postseason.

Show me some evidence supporting it then.

Beyond the simple you play better teams in the postseason, after all you could always end up playing the Rays, Rangers and Braves in a row in the regular season.

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

Show me some evidence supporting it then.

Beyond the simple you play better teams in the postseason, after all you could always end up playing the Rays, Rangers and Braves in a row in the regular season.

I want to understand what you are saying? Are you making the point that the intensity, pressure and stress of playing those teams in the regular season is the exact same as playing them in the post season?

[bpilktree]

27 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

That's the point that I tried to make to @Malike. It's one thing to put up those numbers in the regular season, it's something entirely different to be able to do that when the lights are the brightest agains the very best opposition that you could face.

I can guarantee you that they were even better in the regular season and consistently put up much more length as starters in the regular season.

However, some fans do not acknowledge/accept that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the regular season and the postseason.

You have no idea which players will step up and show out when the bright lights hit and which players will struggle in the big games though.  There are average to even below average guys that made the post season the light came on and they blew up Bumgardner, Daniel Murphy, Randy Arozerana just to name a few. Then there are other hall of fame pitchers and players that play poorly in the post season like Kershaw.  Most of our pitchers have less then 2 full years under their belt so we have no idea what we really have.  Wells is 1st in whip and 17th in ERa currently so it is not like he just an average pitcher, his numbers prove he is one of best in the league.  

[Tryptamine]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Show me some evidence supporting it then.

Beyond the simple you play better teams in the postseason, after all you could always end up playing the Rays, Rangers and Braves in a row in the regular season.

Even if we ignore the postseason factor, facing superior competition has a huge impact.

 

Tyler Wells vs sub .500 teams 

38IP 10ER  2.37 ERA

Tyler Wells vs .500 or better teams

52.2IP 23 ER 3.93 ERA

 

Kyle Bradish vs sub .500 teams

23.2IP 5ER 1.90 ERA

Kyle Bradish vs .500 or better teams 

48.1 IP 25 ER 4.66 ERA 

 

 

 

 

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, bpilktree said:

You have no idea which players will step up and show out when the bright lights hit and which players will struggle in the big games though.  There are average to even below average guys that made the post season the light came on and they blew up Bumgardner, Daniel Murphy, Randy Arozerana just to name a few. Then there are other hall of fame pitchers and players that play poorly in the post season like Kershaw.  Most of our pitchers have less then 2 full years under their belt so we have no idea what we really have.  Wells is 1st in whip and 17th in ERa currently so it is not like he just an average pitcher, his numbers prove he is one of best in the league.  

It is definitely a fair point that we do not and cannot know how guys will handle the pressure cooker until they get into it. For some players, their heart rate slows down and for some it speeds up.

I hesitate to call Madison Bumgardner or Randy Arozerana "average to below average" regular season players.

Now, I will say that while what you say about Wells is absolutely accurate, he is a pitcher who struggles to go deep into games. And I am not sure how you project improvement upon that in the post season, when he is more fatigued than he has ever been, having had to pitch more innings in a season than he has ever thrown. One concern about him is how homer prone he is, which IMO is due to lack of varying speeds of his pitch mix. Almost all of his pitches are between 93-86. He has great location and doesn't walk batters, but when you live without the lack of elite velocity or the lack of great speed change between fastball and change up, you have a small margin for error because your command must be consistently excellent. His change up is a "hard change" but IMO it is still a very good pitch for him. But if his pitch selection is great or the execution is off, it can get hit hard. Also his cutter is like 87-89 aka a bp fastball. If that pitch doesn't have great location or if the batter is able to guess right on it, more often than not it's going to get taken for a ride because it is in the ideal speed zone for the hitter.

I say all of this about Wells to say, 2 to 3 mistakes in the postseason against an opposing elite pitcher and that could be ballgame (like it was last night against a really good starting pitcher). 

[emmett16]

57 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

That's the point that I tried to make to @Malike. It's one thing to put up those numbers in the regular season, it's something entirely different to be able to do that when the lights are the brightest agains the very best opposition that you could face.

I can guarantee you that they were even better in the regular season and consistently put up much more length as starters in the regular season.

However, some fans do not acknowledge/accept that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the regular season and the postseason.

It’s the same game.  How many times have we seen a dominant pitcher fall flat on his face in the playoffs?  Probably more than the surprise guy making a name for himself.  Future HOFer Kershaw comes to mind.  There was also that time a team of scrubs beat Verlander, Price, and Scherzer.  Give me some BP arms and I’ll go to battle with the SP we have.    

[emmett16]

33 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I want to understand what you are saying? Are you making the point that the intensity, pressure and stress of playing those teams in the regular season is the exact same as playing them in the post season?

Yes.  As a professional if you treat one game different than the next and stray from your routine, you will fail.