Could Elias call up our 19-year old SS phenom?

[Bemorewins]

A couple of thoughts. While I am a big believer in Jackson Holliday’s talents, I’m not sure that he is actually needed for the rest of this year. When Machado was brought up, we had a gaping sized hole at 3B. I don’t really see a hole in our infield right now.

Also, there is no reason whatsoever to consider moving Gunnar off of SS for anyone IMO. He has been very good there and nobody (not even Ortiz) is likely to give us a substantial enough defensive upgrade to jostle him from position to position again, this late in the season. The kid is a superstar talent, IMO, leave him alone and let him settle in.

Now as to our other budding superstar infield talent in Holliday, there appears to be this strange obsession to compare him with Ortiz and make it out like Ortiz is the better player. Ortiz is 5 and a half years older and Holliday is already much better. Look at ANY prospect ranking/scouting opinion. Again I don’t want to take away from Ortiz, but to hear posters talk about how far ahead Ortiz is than Holliday as a player (especially with the bat) is ludicrous. It’s one thing to have a favorite or cheer for the underdog, but Henderson and Holliday are the 2 uber talented special players/prospects that we have in the infield. There are no other infielders within the org who are in their class/tier. 

So no they are not leaping frogging anyone or  skipping or jumping ahead of anyone. They are already at the front of the line.

[Gurgi]

Would love to see Kjerstad and Jackson come up at the September call ups.  

[jcaponio]

21 minutes ago, Gurgi said:

Would love to see Kjerstad and Jackson come up at the September call ups.  

Doubt there’s any chance of that happening. One of the two extra spots will assuredly be a bullpen arm and the other will be Ortiz or the outfielder who gets sent down when Mullins/Hicks come back. 

[OriolesMagic83]

Um, No

[Just Regular]

Really this can't be decided until we know if Adley Rutschman is better friends with Adam Frazier or Jackson Holliday.

Heston Kjerstad also factors into the picture if the one rookie at a time thing is indeed a considered policy.

Kjerstad/Holliday are aircraft carriers, everyone else isn't - its just deployment what competitions you put them into, and when okay big leaguers get their version of the recent Tyler Wells life experience.

We'll have Kjerstad + Holliday lineups soon even if not next month.     Mayo cool in AAA so far is looking like he's played himself out of a picture I think he too could have been in if he continued to show all summer he was simply too good for everything in the minors.

[brucewayne]

9 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

A couple of thoughts. While I am a big believer in Jackson Holliday’s talents, I’m not sure that he is actually needed for the rest of this year. When Machado was brought up, we had a gaping sized hole at 3B. I don’t really see a hole in our infield right now.

Also, there is no reason whatsoever to consider moving Gunnar off of SS for anyone IMO. He has been very good there and nobody (not even Ortiz) is likely to give us a substantial enough defensive upgrade to jostle him from position to position again, this late in the season. The kid is a superstar talent, IMO, leave him alone and let him settle in.

Now as to our other budding superstar infield talent in Holliday, there appears to be this strange obsession to compare him with Ortiz and make it out like Ortiz is the better player. Ortiz is 5 and a half years older and Holliday is already much better. Look at ANY prospect ranking/scouting opinion. Again I don’t want to take away from Ortiz, but to hear posters talk about how far ahead Ortiz is than Holliday as a player (especially with the bat) is ludicrous. It’s one thing to have a favorite or cheer for the underdog, but Henderson and Holliday are the 2 uber talented special players/prospects that we have in the infield. There are no other infielders within the org who are in their class/tier. 

So no they are not leaping frogging anyone or  skipping or jumping ahead of anyone. They are already at the front of the line.

I think the preference for Ortiz despite being the inferior player both now and in the future probably has something to do with the perception that Ortiz has put in his dues and Holliday hasnt. Ortiz is 25 and has played a lot of minor league games. They think Ortiz deserves to be here. Well deserve has got nothing to do with it. Put the most talented players on the field.

[sportsfan8703]

Ortiz has no impact on if we call up Holliday or not.

Holliday would be an incremental improvement over Mateo, Urias, and Westburg, all to varying degrees. As previously mentioned… if you wait until next June to call Holliday up, then he can’t win us draft pick for ROY. I think the risk adverse thing to do is to actually call him up this September. If he flops, then you call him up next July instead of June. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by sportsfan8703

[Greg Pappas]

1 hour ago, brucewayne said:

I think the preference for Ortiz despite being the inferior player both now and in the future probably has something to do with the perception that Ortiz has put in his dues and Holliday hasnt. Ortiz is 25 and has played a lot of minor league games. They think Ortiz deserves to be here. Well deserve has got nothing to do with it. Put the most talented players on the field.

There are far too many people that believe Ortiz should be here to attempt to lump us all in together and claim to know what they, we, or I think.    Speaking only for myself, I believe Ortiz should be here, yet it has zero to do with paying dues or deserving it.   It has to do with how good he has shown himself to be at the highest level of the minors, both offensively and defensively, and believing he would be an upgrade to our roster beginning now.   Holliday is a far better prospect than Ortiz and a star in the making that should be here at some point next season.   Both things can be true.  

[Greg Pappas]

Jesus is Holliday good... went 5/6 tonight with a triple, 2 RBI and a SB, and is now OPS'ing 1.049 in AA at 19.7-years of age.  

Edited August 12, 2023 by Greg Pappas

[Billy F-Face3]

Cal was 20 and just 2 weeks shy of his 21st birthday when he wss called up. 

I don't see the circumstances with Holliday being the same because there are so many top prospects in front of him still knocking/banging on the door, and Holliday still hasn't been promoted to AAA yet. 

I'm going to guess he gets a shot to break with the team out of training camp next season at the very earliest. 

All that said, I remember when Alex Rodriguez was called up at such a young age (18) and took the league by storm, so I really like the idea of an Orioles player doing the same thing at such a young age. 

[Bemorewins]

9 minutes ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Cal was 20 and just 2 weeks shy of his 21st birthday when he wss called up. 

I don't see the circumstances with Holliday being the same because there are so many top prospects in front of him still knocking/banging on the door, and Holliday still hasn't been promoted to AAA yet. 

I'm going to guess he gets a shot to break with the team out of training camp next season at the very earliest. 

All that said, I remember when Alex Rodriguez was called up at such a young age (18) and took the league by storm, so I really like the idea of an Orioles player doing the same thing at such a young age. 

I actually agree with waiting until Opening Day next year. But I disagree with your statement “there are so many top prospects in front of him”. None, not a single one is in front of him in any way. He is that much better than whoever is in the infield at Norfolk. Ortiz, Norby, Mayo are all really talented in their own right, but none are in his tier. He’s that good at NINETEEN! 

[brucewayne]

10 hours ago, Greg Pappas said:

Jesus is Holliday good... went 5/6 tonight with a triple, 2 RBI and a SB, and is now OPS'ing 1.049 in AA at 19.7-years of age.  

As I said before "Deserve has got nothing to do with it". Maximize the talent on the field. Yes, Holliday is only 19. I honestly believe that, right now, he is the 2nd best infielder in the entire organization. I believe he could come today and outperform guys like Ortiz, Norby, Westburg, Urias, Frazier, Mateo, etc. Not even talking future projections in this moment. I'm saying right now the only better infielder in the entire organization is Gunnar. 

Win the World Series. 

[sportsfan8703]

19 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I actually agree with waiting until Opening Day next year. But I disagree with your statement “there are so many top prospects in front of him”. None, not a single one is in front of him in any way. He is that much better than whoever is in the infield at Norfolk. Ortiz, Norby, Mayo are all really talented in their own right, but none are in his tier. He’s that good at NINETEEN! 

Holliday was 5-6 last night. He’s just a different type of dude. The move to AAA should happen soon.  Even if we don’t bring him up until mid September. He can get a month of AAA in. 

To be post season eligible a player only has to be on the 40 man roster as of 8/31. 

With that said… send Holliday to AAA. He’s batting .386 and has a 1.049 OPS. 

Lift Off!!!!

Edited August 12, 2023 by sportsfan8703

[CaptainRedbeard]

The Orioles aren’t in a position where they need to call up Holliday until it’s apparent he is going to be better than whoever he would be replacing on the MLB roster. Until then, the service time considerations will be the deciding factor. Given the depth of the MLB roster, I don’t think that happens until he has a decent sample size of performance against AAA pitching.

If there was a huge hole on the roster like there was with Machado it would be a different equation. But as good as Holliday is and will be, I don’t think you can say any 19 year old currently with 78 plate appearances against AA pitching is a better bet against MLB playoff pitching staffs in two months than Urias, Frazier or Ortiz, let alone all 3. 

I would bet on him to be better than Mateo, though 

[Bemorewins]

16 minutes ago, CaptainRedbeard said:

The Orioles aren’t in a position where they need to call up Holliday until it’s apparent he is going to be better than whoever he would be replacing on the MLB roster. Until then, the service time considerations will be the deciding factor. Given the depth of the MLB roster, I don’t think that happens until he has a decent sample size of performance against AAA pitching.

If there was a huge hole on the roster like there was with Machado it would be a different equation. But as good as Holliday is and will be, I don’t think you can say any 19 year old currently with 78 plate appearances against AA pitching is a better bet against MLB playoff pitching staffs in two months than Urias, Frazier or Ortiz, let alone all 3. 

I would bet on him to be better than Mateo, though 

I agree with you that there is no need for him to be called up now. We are fine rolling with the combo of Urias and Frazier for the remainder of the season and into the postseason. I however do not think that Ortiz factors into that calculus.

However, using the same measuring standards for a prospect like Ortiz in comparison to Holliday is a mistake IMO. One has nothing to do with the other. Ortiz is a very nice prospect (a little old for prospect standards) but still a fine prospect none the less. What Holliday is, is something super rare that doesn't come around every year, maybe even every 5/10?

There is nothing in his profile/performance that says he couldn't hit MLB pitching right now. Most evaluators that I have heard talk about him say that he probably could.

Next season when Frazier is gone and when Holliday has the entire season to acclimate to the bigs, is when he should be an everyday starter for us in the infield. Urias is a fine back-up/utility/platoon player, he is a wonderful defensive 3B but his hitter is just decent/average. Holliday offers an upside that he does not. And furthermore, he offers an offensive upside that Ortiz does not.

IMO if we are not going to spend the money to extend our most talented players, we have to look at this as a window to maximize success. Next year we are into year 3 of 6 for Adley. In order to maximize championship contention, we need to be thinking from here on out about how to get all of our most talented players in the org to all be on the same big league team for as long as possible.