Roch provides update on Os search for pitching

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not looking for it since I don't care enough to but I recall last offseason a comment being made about him being surprised at the price of FA pitching.

Yes, he did say something like that last offseason.  

[RZNJ]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, he did say something like that last offseason.  

Sure.  I agree as well.   The questionable part with no basis in truth, that I know of, is that Elias is “continually” surprised by the cost of pitching.  Only one poster seems to remember or imagined that.

Edited December 25, 2023 by RZNJ

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Sure.  I agree as well.   The questionable part with no basis in truth, that I know of, is that Elias is “continually” surprised by the cost of pitching.  Only one poster seems to remember or imagined that.

I agree that was an overstatement. 

[Tony-OH]

Perhaps some people believe Elias undervalues pitching because of his lack of drafting them in the first three rounds of the draft until this past year and the fact that he's never been willing to trade for a TOR due to their prospect cost.

Now there are nuggets of truth in this statements, but I don't think it's because he doesn't "value" pitching. I truly believe Elias and Sig believe they had a system that could identify and either develop or fix lesser valued pitchers. 

As several have posted, the Orioles pitching staff was pretty good during the regular season partially due to the second part of my first sentence. Bradish, Rodriguez, and Kremer were all developed within the system under Elias with Bradish in particular becoming a much different pitcher then when he arrived. 

I do think Elias is very serious about acquiring a TOR this offseason, but he's probably trying to do it without giving up Holliday, Mayo or Basallo which could be a tough sell. 

We'll see how it all shakes up, but I don't agree that Elias doesn't value pitching. He found a cost effective way of putting together a pitching staff last year that won 101 games last year and although it did not work in the playoffs (outside of Bradish), I do think he has to weigh the cost vs the addition. Unlike the Yankees or Dodgers, he can't swing and miss and just easily recover by buying his way out of his mistake.

[Otter]

39 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Perhaps some people believe Elias undervalues pitching because of his lack of drafting them in the first three rounds of the draft until this past year and the fact that he's never been willing to trade for a TOR due to their prospect cost.

Now there are nuggets of truth in this statements, but I don't think it's because he doesn't "value" pitching. I truly believe Elias and Sig believe they had a system that could identify and either develop or fix lesser valued pitchers. 

As several have posted, the Orioles pitching staff was pretty good during the regular season partially due to the second part of my first sentence. Bradish, Rodriguez, and Kremer were all developed within the system under Elias with Bradish in particular becoming a much different pitcher then when he arrived. 

I do think Elias is very serious about acquiring a TOR this offseason, but he's probably trying to do it without giving up Holliday, Mayo or Basallo which could be a tough sell. 

We'll see how it all shakes up, but I don't agree that Elias doesn't value pitching. He found a cost effective way of putting together a pitching staff last year that won 101 games last year and although it did not work in the playoffs (outside of Bradish), I do think he has to weigh the cost vs the addition. Unlike the Yankees or Dodgers, he can't swing and miss and just easily recover by buying his way out of his mistake.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think the one thing Elias needs to do better with is develop more pitching depth.  If he's not going to go after quality through free agency or big trades or high draft picks, he needs to figure out other ways to bring in a lot more quantity.  Bring in more back of the rotation candidates and reclamation projects, and the ones that don't make the roster stash them at AAA.  I know this isn't what most of us want, but it's better than doing nothing just because the free agents and trade targets were too expensive.  We were very lucky last year to not have any major injuries to our starting rotation since we had pretty much nothing waiting at AAA to pick up the slack.  Developing pitching is a war of attrition, and because of the high rate of injury sometimes quantity is just as important as quality.

[Safelykept]

44 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Perhaps some people believe Elias undervalues pitching because of his lack of drafting them in the first three rounds of the draft until this past year and the fact that he's never been willing to trade for a TOR due to their prospect cost.

Now there are nuggets of truth in this statements, but I don't think it's because he doesn't "value" pitching. I truly believe Elias and Sig believe they had a system that could identify and either develop or fix lesser valued pitchers. 

As several have posted, the Orioles pitching staff was pretty good during the regular season partially due to the second part of my first sentence. Bradish, Rodriguez, and Kremer were all developed within the system under Elias with Bradish in particular becoming a much different pitcher then when he arrived. 

I do think Elias is very serious about acquiring a TOR this offseason, but he's probably trying to do it without giving up Holliday, Mayo or Basallo which could be a tough sell. 

We'll see how it all shakes up, but I don't agree that Elias doesn't value pitching. He found a cost effective way of putting together a pitching staff last year that won 101 games last year and although it did not work in the playoffs (outside of Bradish), I do think he has to weigh the cost vs the addition. Unlike the Yankees or Dodgers, he can't swing and miss and just easily recover by buying his way out of his mistake.

If its something north  of Cease like lardardo from Miami (3 years control vs 2) Ive already said in another post that Basillo or  Mayo would probably have to headline and might not be a bad idea for us because if you extend means that a chance to have your staff set fort the next 3 years, If its somebody like Kirby From Seattle Holliday would definitely have to Headline. Not sure why either team would do that trade though

[emmett16]

I wonder if we could get a good deal on Alcantara with him being injured.  Try to pick up a pitcher at the deadline for the stretch run and have an Ace in waiting for 2025.  

[Safelykept]

29 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

I wonder if we could get a good deal on Alcantara with him being injured.  Try to pick up a pitcher at the deadline for the stretch run and have an Ace in waiting for 2025.  

Nah, I live in Miami what is the fan base and its not much,they love Sandy, hes under control for the next 3 years, he was extended, so he would cost us 12 million a year for the next 2 years. one of those years he would not play. Whats a good deal?  Not sure Elias is looking at 2025. Many on this board discount Means for the same injury. This is a cruising year for the Marlins. Luzardo is the miami fit for us, he makes us better right now,makes MIami more offensive in 2025. (see above post)

[sportsfan8703]

Starting Pitchers

Chase Anderson (36)
Matthew Boyd (33)
Carlos Carrasco (37)
Mike Clevinger (33)
Johnny Cueto (38)
Zach Davies (31)
Chris Flexen (29)
Domingo German (31)
Lucas Giolito (29)
Zack Greinke (40)
Rich Hill (44)
Dakota Hudson (29)
Shota Imanaga (30)
Jakob Junis (31)
Brad Keller (28)
Corey Kluber (38)
Clayton Kershaw (36)
Eric Lauer (29)
Michael Lorenzen (32)
Sean Manaea (32)
Frankie Montas (31)
Jordan Montgomery (31)
Jake Odorizzi (34)*
James Paxton (34)
Zach Plesac (29)
Yariel Rodriguez (27)
Hyun-Jin Ryu (37)
Blake Snell (31)
Marcus Stroman (33)
Noah Syndergaard (31)
Julio Teheran (33)
Spencer Turnbull (31)
Jose Ureña (32)
Julio Urias (27)
Vince Velasquez (32)
Luke Weaver (30)
Alex Wood (33)
Jake Woodford (27)
Brandon Woodruff (31)

Per MLBTR

[IPlayGM]

12 hours ago, Safelykept said:

Nah, I live in Miami what is the fan base and its not much,they love Sandy, hes under control for the next 3 years, he was extended, so he would cost us 12 million a year for the next 2 years. one of those years he would not play. Whats a good deal?  Not sure Elias is looking at 2025. Many on this board discount Means for the same injury. This is a cruising year for the Marlins. Luzardo is the miami fit for us, he makes us better right now,makes MIami more offensive in 2025. (see above post)

The key for me in that is would they do

Santander 

1 of our 4-8 guys 

1 of our next level guys

DSL guy

Does that get there?

[Aristotelian]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:37 AM, Tony-OH said:

Perhaps some people believe Elias undervalues pitching because of his lack of drafting them in the first three rounds of the draft until this past year and the fact that he's never been willing to trade for a TOR due to their prospect cost.

Now there are nuggets of truth in this statements, but I don't think it's because he doesn't "value" pitching. I truly believe Elias and Sig believe they had a system that could identify and either develop or fix lesser valued pitchers. 

As several have posted, the Orioles pitching staff was pretty good during the regular season partially due to the second part of my first sentence. Bradish, Rodriguez, and Kremer were all developed within the system under Elias with Bradish in particular becoming a much different pitcher then when he arrived. 

I do think Elias is very serious about acquiring a TOR this offseason, but he's probably trying to do it without giving up Holliday, Mayo or Basallo which could be a tough sell. 

We'll see how it all shakes up, but I don't agree that Elias doesn't value pitching. He found a cost effective way of putting together a pitching staff last year that won 101 games last year and although it did not work in the playoffs (outside of Bradish), I do think he has to weigh the cost vs the addition. Unlike the Yankees or Dodgers, he can't swing and miss and just easily recover by buying his way out of his mistake.

And/or they believe they have a system for drafting position players but don't have one for pitching, so they are committed to finding pitching through other sources. The idea is that they know what they don't know so they don't try to force something that isn't there. If drafting hitters is their comparative advantage, makes sense to maximize it rather than waste picks on equal or lesser value pitchers, and instead find pitching through other sources like fixing veterans, modest free agent spending, and trades with teams who do have a system for drafting/developing pitchers. Either way I agree it is simplistic to say they don't value pitching.

[Safelykept]

11 minutes ago, IPlayGM said:

The key for me in that is would they do

Santander 

1 of our 4-8 guys 

1 of our next level guys

DSL guy

Does that get there?

Dont see what one year of Santander does for the Marlins. Tricky trade to value becuase he does not picth this yer\ar

[Moose Milligan]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:37 AM, Tony-OH said:

Perhaps some people believe Elias undervalues pitching because of his lack of drafting them in the first three rounds of the draft until this past year and the fact that he's never been willing to trade for a TOR due to their prospect cost.

Now there are nuggets of truth in this statements, but I don't think it's because he doesn't "value" pitching. I truly believe Elias and Sig believe they had a system that could identify and either develop or fix lesser valued pitchers. 

As several have posted, the Orioles pitching staff was pretty good during the regular season partially due to the second part of my first sentence. Bradish, Rodriguez, and Kremer were all developed within the system under Elias with Bradish in particular becoming a much different pitcher then when he arrived. 

I do think Elias is very serious about acquiring a TOR this offseason, but he's probably trying to do it without giving up Holliday, Mayo or Basallo which could be a tough sell. 

We'll see how it all shakes up, but I don't agree that Elias doesn't value pitching. He found a cost effective way of putting together a pitching staff last year that won 101 games last year and although it did not work in the playoffs (outside of Bradish), I do think he has to weigh the cost vs the addition. Unlike the Yankees or Dodgers, he can't swing and miss and just easily recover by buying his way out of his mistake.

Great post.

I'll also add that there's no way you can be in a position like Elias is and NOT value pitching.  

[RVAOsFan]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:37 AM, Tony-OH said:

Perhaps some people believe Elias undervalues pitching because of his lack of drafting them in the first three rounds of the draft until this past year and the fact that he's never been willing to trade for a TOR due to their prospect cost.

Now there are nuggets of truth in this statements, but I don't think it's because he doesn't "value" pitching. I truly believe Elias and Sig believe they had a system that could identify and either develop or fix lesser valued pitchers. 

As several have posted, the Orioles pitching staff was pretty good during the regular season partially due to the second part of my first sentence. Bradish, Rodriguez, and Kremer were all developed within the system under Elias with Bradish in particular becoming a much different pitcher then when he arrived. 

I do think Elias is very serious about acquiring a TOR this offseason, but he's probably trying to do it without giving up Holliday, Mayo or Basallo which could be a tough sell. 

We'll see how it all shakes up, but I don't agree that Elias doesn't value pitching. He found a cost effective way of putting together a pitching staff last year that won 101 games last year and although it did not work in the playoffs (outside of Bradish), I do think he has to weigh the cost vs the addition. Unlike the Yankees or Dodgers, he can't swing and miss and just easily recover by buying his way out of his mistake.

Great post, I agree 100%.  One thing I would tack on, I don't think anyone should be holding it against Elias for not making a bigger splash for a TOR starter last off season.  Yes we all thought the O's would be competitive last year but expecting them to be a 100 win team would be aggressive by anyone's standards. This team has exceeded expectations on the rebuild timeline the past two seasons.  This is probably the offseason Elias had earmarked to make some moves and splashes.  So lets see what unfolds the next couple months. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, RVAOsFan said:

Great post, I agree 100%.  One thing I would tack on, I don't think anyone should be holding it against Elias for not making a bigger splash for a TOR starter last off season.  Yes we all thought the O's would be competitive last year but expecting them to be a 100 win team would be aggressive by anyone's standards. This team has exceeded expectations on the rebuild timeline the past two seasons.  This is probably the offseason Elias had earmarked to make some moves and splashes.  So lets see what unfolds the next couple months. 

They should have anticipated them being really good the last 2 years. It’s a shame they didn’t make being better a bigger priority.

Lets hope they don’t continue to make that mistake this offseason.