Orioles 2024 Best defensive combination

[Pickles]

26 minutes ago, Frobby said:

If all I cared about was defense, I might put Mateo at SS and move Ortiz to 2B.  Mateo was the Fielding Bible winner in 2022, deservedly so, and though he clearly slipped last year, I feel that was due to not playing every day, not because he lost any ability.  And even if Gunnar or Ortiz might be a slightly better SS as of 2024, this alignment gets all three on the field at the same time at positions where they can be plus or plus plus.  

By the way, as evidence of my theory on Mateo, through 72 games he was +6 Rdrs and +4.6 UZR.   The rest of the season, when he started playing more sporadically, he was -4 Rdrs and -1.1 UZR.

Needless to say, this is all academic, since Mateo’s offense is so bad and unreliable.  But the exercise was solely about defense.  
 

I almost made a similar post.  I haven't seen Ortiz enough, though I was impressed in a SSS last year, but unless Mateo has seriously declined (and I share the opinion with you that he hasn't, that his slippage last year was mostly about comfort) if Ortiz is better than Mateo has played the last two years for us, I'll be thrilled.

[Three Run Homer]

Does Mayo have enough footspeed to eventually be a good RF?  He certainly has the arm.  

[banks703]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

We've been discussing in multiple threads who fits where best defensively. So without taking the bats into consideration, and only going off the current 40-man roster, this is the best defensive team the Orioles can put on the field to start 2024. Just a note, a player can only be in one position so in the case of Joey Ortiz where he would be the best shortstop and second baseman, he can only be one.

1B: Ryan Mountcastle 
2B: Jordan Westburg
SS: Joey Ortiz
3B: Gunnar Henderson
C : Adley Rutschman
LF: Austin Hays
CF: Cedric Mullins
RF: Colton Cowser

Now there is going to be some argument that Gunnar Henderson is the best defensive shortstop, and by arm strength alone, they would be right, but I've seen enough quickness, smoothness and consistency from Joey Ortiz that he would be preference at SS, especially since Henderson is by and far the best defensive 3B.

 

 

This has been beaten to death in other threads but (and to much chagrin of others) this is the correct alignment with the current 40man. 

[banks703]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Potentially. Let's say he's traded, Mayo is sent back to AAA to work in RF as well as 3B and 1B, and Holliday is sent back to AAA to play SS and 2B.

This would leave the lineup at 3B, SS and 2b as:

Vs righties:
3B: Urias
SS : Henderson
2B: Westburg

Vs LHB
3B: Henderson with occasional days off going to Urias
SS: Mateo
2B: Westburg

 

I think this is a worst-case scenario for the development of key guys at key positions. My hope for Gunnar in 24 is that he plays more than 90% of his defensive innings at one position. I'd rather he move to third and play all of those innings at third than to bounce back and forth. The same goes for Joey, JW and everyone else. I know that they love the positional flexibility/versatility and I realize its benefit but game reps mean so much to development and I think they need to figure out who is going to be where long term. 

[Tony-OH]

55 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Santander is physically limited out there, especially in regards to speed, but he takes good routes, catches everything, and has a solid arm.

Cowser is obviously a lot more tooled up, but I was disappointed in his routes and his throwing arm- not the strength, that was better than I thought tbh, but his mechanics in receiving and releasing the ball led to several bad/inaccurate throws.

I know you've probably seen him more than any of us on this board, and I respect your opinion.  I have little doubt in the long run it will turn out to be correct.  But, as of last year, I felt more comfortable with Santander in RF than Cowser, and I'd like to see improvement from Cowser before I changed my opinion.

Fair enough. If I was basing my opinions on what I saw at the major league level only I might have the same conclusion. Cowser will be better.

[Tony-OH]

13 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I think this is a worst-case scenario for the development of key guys at key positions. My hope for Gunnar in 24 is that he plays more than 90% of his defensive innings at one position. I'd rather he move to third and play all of those innings at third than to bounce back and forth. The same goes for Joey, JW and everyone else. I know that they love the positional flexibility/versatility and I realize its benefit but game reps mean so much to development and I think they need to figure out who is going to be where long term. 

That would be my preference as well, though I'd have Mayo at 3B to start the year if I had my druthers right now.

[Roll Tide]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

I like this thread.  I have Gunnar over Ortiz as the better defensive SS. I have Urias over Ortiz at 3B. Ortiz would only be the best defender at 2B. That is not taking anything away from Ortiz. I like Ortiz. I think he can be Urias+. 

I know this is an all defense discussion, but Mayo is now slouch. He’s big and has a cannon. At 3B and 30HR power, that’s nothing to sneeze at. We can sacrifice a little range. 

Ortiz is likely the best defender In the group. 

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

That would be my preference as well, though I'd have Mayo at 3B to start the year if I had my druthers right now.

Mayo could be the wildcard. We've beaten up the SS debate (which I will never budge on Joey>Gunnar>Holliday) but if Mayo improves enough defensively to be league-average there or better, it drastically shakes up the infield alignment for the next five years. A bunch of other guys would become expendable. Offensively, an IF alignment of Gunnar at SS, Holliday at 2B and Mayo at 3B is lethal. We're talking late 2000's Yankee IF potential. 

Mayo looks like Troy Glaus to me. If he can handle 3B adequately, it changes a lot for the current group of guys...but I don't know if I'm ready to pencil him at third just yet. I need to see better lateral movement from, which I guess could come as he grows into his frame. Glaus wasn't exactly Brooks at third but he wasn't a butcher and his peak seasons were pretty damn excellent. 

[Frobby]

I also want to say that having a well above-average defense is very important to me.  When I look back at Orioles history, whether it’s 1960-85, 1992-98, 2012-16 or now, our good teams have been good defensively, and often incredibly good.  I don’t think a team of solid hitters who are “adequate” or “can stick” at their positions gets us where we want to go.  Especially on the left side of the infield.   

[AnythingO's]

2 hours ago, Three Run Homer said:

Does Mayo have enough footspeed to eventually be a good RF?  He certainly has the arm.  

Well if the Fangraphs Speed ratings are close to accurate (remember they include baserunning as well) Kjerstad is 6.0, Cowser is 4.9 (with 5.0 being average) and Mayo at 3.3 which is behind Stowers at 3.9. So I would doubt Mayo has the footspeed but what do I know. 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I also want to say that having a well above-average defense is very important to me.  When I look back at Orioles history, whether it’s 1960-85, 1992-98, 2012-16 or now, our good teams have been good defensively, and often incredibly good.  I don’t think a team of solid hitters who are “adequate” or “can stick” at their positions gets us where we want to go.  Especially on the left side of the infield.   

I believe your dislike for Mayo at 3B has been noted. You bang that drum harder than Can when he claims the poor union ballplayers as down and out working class Joes being screwed over by company management.

[Frobby]

41 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I believe your dislike for Mayo at 3B has been noted. You bang that drum harder than Can when he claims the poor union ballplayers as down and out working class Joes being screwed over by company management.

No, you misunderstand me.  I don’t dislike Mayo at all, and believe he can be a very important part of our future.  I’m just saying that IF it turns out he’s only so-so defensively at 3B, I’d rather he play a less impactful defensive position.  

[now]

Yeah so much depends on Mayo. For example, if he sticks at 3B, then Henderson stays at SS and Ortiz is expendable. But if he can play elsewhere (1B, with Basallo?--another huge factor), then Ortiz is a keeper, playing between Henderson and Holliday. 

The IF logjam is creating an OF logjam behind the incumbent trio. Candidates can reasonably include (besides Cowser) Kjerstad, Mayo, Norby, Westburg, maybe Basallo... but now we've strayed quite far from *defense*!  

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

No, you misunderstand me.  I don’t dislike Mayo at all, and believe he can be a very important part of our future.  I’m just saying that IF it turns out he’s only so-so defensively at 3B, I’d rather he play a less impactful defensive position.  

Nope, I understand you fully. You do not want him playing 3B. You may be right, but I feel he has a chance to play there. Saying that, I'm not against him getting a look in RF.

[interloper]

Mayo should not sniff 3B on this Orioles team. There's literally 4 other better defensive 3B ahead of him. He's a 1B or RF. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Willing to see what he looks like at 3B in the spring, but I'm not expecting any Gunnar-level improvements over there. 

Edited January 10 by interloper