Fangraphs Analysis on Holliday Demotion

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I hope that's not the plan. I'm not sure it would be the Dodgers as they just gave their catcher what like a 10 year contract?

I didn't want to be all 2000's and say Pinstripes.

If you decide not to extend him do you trade Adley?  When?  Do you just take the pick when he walks?

Time keeps on ticking, ticking, ticking, into the future.

[RZNJ]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Serious question.

How many quality LH pitchers is he likely to face in AAA?

More than he faced in A, A+, and AA combined, probably.   Of course, there’s no way to put a number on it or what constitutes a quality LHP.    He did struggle against AAA and ML LHP in ST despite the GS off Kikuchi and a double against another.  I agree, the best way to adjust would seem to be against ML LHP but there’s some logic to having him get more experience against AAA LHP first.    That’s why the minor league system is setup the way it is.  Each level is a progression and he hasn’t faced many AAA LHP to this point.

[forphase1]

16 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

If it takes 2 additional years to sort this out, Adley will be in what year 5 by then? 

I was just referring to all the depth and number crunching coming up,  including with Basallo 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, RZNJ said:

More than he faced in A, A+, and AA combined, probably.   Of course, there’s no way to put a number on it or what constitutes a quality LHP.    He did struggle against AAA and ML LHP in ST despite the GS off Kikuchi and a double against another.  I agree, the best way to adjust would seem to be against ML LHP but there’s some logic to having him get more experience against AAA LHP first.    That’s why the minor league system is setup the way it is.  Each level is a progression and he hasn’t faced many AAA LHP to this point.

I'm not at all sure it is.

This is a huge tangent but the minor league system is a huge cluster that just kind of came together.

They just made substantive changes to it a few years ago and wanted to go further.

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I didn't want to be all 2000's and say Pinstripes.

If you decide not to extend him do you trade Adley?  When?  Do you just take the pick when he walks?

Time keeps on ticking, ticking, ticking, into the future.

I hope if not Adley then Gunnar and Holliday are resigned OR we sign other franchise players. To think of a constant revolving door and ongoing rebuild that never stops really scares me. 

We haven't had a Hall of Fame player since Cal who stayed the majority of their career with us. At some point I hope that comes to an end. It's kind of sad to look up in left field out in the row of statues with the legends and see none from the last 2 generations.

[SteveA]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

In what world is 45/35 over more than a decade "a lot more" then 25 (29 now) over two calendar years?

Once again Manny was younger, less highly regarded and had less experience learning a new position.  "You can't mess up the good ones".

It's cover to game his clock.  Elias is willing to sacrifice defense, he's willing to let guys play out of position.  But when it comes along with gaming service time, all the I have to be dotted and the T have to be crossed.

 

"Willing to let guys play out of position" -- sure, we've seen a lot of that.   But how many of those guys are critical franchise pieces that are still just 20 years old.

Yes, Manny did come up right away.   And it worked out.   Clearly, Elias is more conservative at promoting prospects than most other GMs.   That's no secret.   And if you want to say it is all cover for gaming the clock, OK, that's your opinion.   And it may well be right.

But I still say that occasionally playing a mid- to low-end roster guy out of position on defense is an entirely different situation than managing the transition of a 20 year old guy who is expected to be a franchise cornerstone, to a new defensive position, a change that will  be full time and permanent (for at least several years), at the same time he is getting his first taste of major league action.   Using Mateo/O'Hearn as argument points in this particular discussion is just a way for you to grind one of your favorite axes and I don't think its relevant at all.

 

[RZNJ]

17 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not at all sure it is.

This is a huge tangent but the minor league system is a huge cluster that just kind of came together.

They just made substantive changes to it a few years ago and wanted to go further.

You don’t think the level of pitcher gets more difficult at each level?   Don’t know what to tell you then.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

You don’t think the level of pitcher gets more difficult at each level? 

I didn't say that.

I didn't say anything even close to that.

[Can_of_corn]

22 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I hope if not Adley then Gunnar and Holliday are resigned OR we sign other franchise players. To think of a constant revolving door and ongoing rebuild that never stops really scares me. 

We haven't had a Hall of Fame player since Cal who stayed the majority of their career with us. At some point I hope that comes to an end. It's kind of sad to look up in left field out in the row of statues with the legends and see none from the last 2 generations.

Mussina (10 of 18) does technically qualify.

But I know what you mean.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I didn't say that.

I didn't say anything even close to that.

Ok.  Then he’ll be getting experience against AAA LHP who are, arguably, a tougher test than what he faced for most of last year.  Right?

[foxfield]

It was more fun to rip on the horrible idiocy of the Baltimore Orioles brain trust when it was truly horrible.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Ok.  Then he’ll be getting experience against AAA LHP who are, arguably, a tougher test than what he faced for most of last year.  Right?

Sure, but also a clear step below what he'd be getting in the majors.

The time spent at AAA doesn't seem to be eliminating the adjustment period once they get to the majors.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, foxfield said:

It was more fun to rip on the horrible idiocy of the Baltimore Orioles brain trust when it was truly horrible.

I think you have to go back to Thrift, who I think had medical issues, before finding a FO I'd say was idiotic.

For instance Dan and Andy did what they could with the owner they were saddled with.

[RZNJ]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure, but also a clear step below what he'd be getting in the majors.

The time spent at AAA doesn't seem to be eliminating the adjustment period once they get to the majors.

Sure, but that’s like saying they should  skip AA and AAA because nothing is like ML pitching.  It’s a progression.  Having faced more experienced LHP in AAA should, arguably, make him a little better prepared for ML LHP.

[foxfield]

26 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think you have to go back to Thrift, who I think had medical issues, before finding a FO I'd say was idiotic.

For instance Dan and Andy did what they could with the owner they were saddled with.

This is factual but let’s be honest. Whether it was ownership or FO we have sucked for almost 40 years.